Natural Sound

[PeterA]

I have always wondered about the effect of the knot on a thread drive loop. Some say it is audible, others do not hear it. On my table, the knot always rides on the outside of the loop, so it all seems very smooth. Anyway, for curiosity's sake, I decided to see if I could make a closed loop thread without a knot, just a glued seam. It seems very strong. Here are some photos. I will reinstall it tomorrow to see if I can hear/notice any difference.

 

[Salectric]

Do you use a particular type of thread?

 

[PeterA]

Do you use a particular type of thread?

Yes. The one supplied with the table. Ddk tested many threads. This one is very strong. They sound different. I do not know more details.

 

[Atmasphere]

Define “true Stereo”....!

'True Stereo' would be a recording done with exactly two microphones, which might be spaced omni-directional, cardioids in an XY pattern (crossing at 110-120 degrees) or figure 8s crossing at 90 degrees.

 

[PeterA]

I installed the new drive thread on my AS2000 to see if I could hear a difference. I did not. It does look cool though without the small knot. The challenge was to make a thread loop without much of a bump at the seam. My first attempt was fine but I overlapped the the two thread ends by about 1/4". I made another one butting the ends together with a tiny drop of glue. This actually worked better and seems strong enough. I can barely see or feel the seam as it goes around. The Micro Seiki knot is successful because the knot always rides on the outside of the loop and remains extremely flexible as it rotates around the large platter and smaller motor pulley. Any hard seam with glue is not quite as flexible at that spot, but my thread does go around very smoothly. I suspect with a lighter platter or lower torque motor, the knot and the glued seam might be audible. On my table, they do not seem to be. Both sound better than dental floss and a non stretch belt/tape.

 

[PeterA]

My next fun experiment is playing with my old college turntable, a Denon DP45F. These are now available on Ebay for about $350. I had given it to a friend to try out while he researched an inexpensive new turntable for his modest system. He kept it for two years. Another friend asked me what he should get for $1,000, and I offered to give him this Denon until he found one. Honestly, my advice to each of them was to get a used Denon on Ebay, and if it breaks, just to get another one. The second friend found an old turntable in his basement, so he declined my offer, so I installed it in my system.

The original Denon DL300 cartridge sounds great, but I really wanted a more direct comparison to my main table, so I installed one of my spare Ortofon cartridges, matching what I have on the AS2000. Wow, this old direct drive table sounded great in my system, much better than I remember from years ago in my much more modest system. No surprise there, but I was pretty impressed. The Denon/Ortofon does nothing wrong. It is very well balanced, with great weight and body. The sound is very involving and natural. Nothing sticks out and calls attention to itself. There is good extension and what seems like very low distortion. Dynamics and presence are excellent. And the automatic buttons controlling the arm lift and movement are really cool to play with when the lid is down, and it returns the arm and shuts off when the record is finished. How cool is that?

I then listened to my American Sound AS2000. The character is very similar - well balanced, nothing sticks out, very engaging and natural sounding. The difference is in degrees of resolution. There is more nuance to strings, and piano keys hitting the strings. Low bass is more articulate, triangles and cymbals have a quicker, clearer strike and ring. And everything sounds more open. Layering and separation is better. The overall sound is cleaner and a few degrees more natural. But the interesting thing is that the character of the two tables is very similar. Nothing is harsh, hard or cold as I have heard from other turntables in my system here or elsewhere. Both are natural sounding.

I am going to keep this Denon around for a while to play for friends to see what they think. I am really quite astonished that a table that I have owned since 1980 with a nice vintage cartridge I bought on Ebay can sound this natural. I still have a few of my old records from college days. They are up next. This hobby can be a lot of fun.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for this report, Peter. Your report mirrors my impressions of my Denon/Hana SL versus Brinkmann/Reed/Opus.

These Denons are an example of how starting audiophiles can get very respectable sound at a very modest investment.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you for this report, Peter. Your report mirrors my impressions of my Denon/Hana SL versus Brinkmann/Reed/Opus.

These Denons are an example of how starting audiophiles can get very respectable sound at a very modest investment.

You are welcome Ron. I don’t think one needs to be a starting Audio file to get one of these Denons. A seasoned Audio file might be shocked at how much performance is in these vintage turntables compared to what’s available now. It’s one of the reasons that I do not think there has been any real progress in the hobby for 40 years or more. I could live very happily with this turntable in my system.

 

[Joel27]

It still amazes me whenever I read a report like this, which also replicates my own experience, we spend magnitudes more money as we get more seasoned and upgrade our system only to gain small degrees of improvement. Although it may be improvement, I sometimes wonder if I would have been just as happy before I fell down the rabbit hole.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It still amazes me whenever I read a report like this, which also replicates my own experience, we spend magnitudes more money as we get more seasoned and upgrade our system only to gain small degrees of improvement. Although it may be improvement, I sometimes wonder if I would have been just as happy before I fell down the rabbit hole.

Each of us places an idiosyncratic marginal dollar value on the incremental sonic improvement, even if that sonic improvement is subject to severe diminishing returns.

I much prefer my Brinkmann set-up over my Denon set-up. But is the former 60 times better sonically than the latter? No.

 

[Joel27]

Each of us places an idiosyncratic marginal dollar value on the incremental sonic improvement, even if that sonic improvement is subject to severe diminishing returns.

I much prefer my Brinkmann set-up over my Denon set-up. But is the former 60 times better sonically than the latter? No.

I can agree with your statement 100%.

 

[morricab]

My next fun experiment is playing with my old college turntable, a Denon DP45F. These are now available on Ebay for about $350. I had given it to a friend to try out while he researched an inexpensive new turntable for his modest system. He kept it for two years. Another friend asked me what he should get for $1,000, and I offered to give him this Denon until he found one. Honestly, my advice to each of them was to get a used Denon on Ebay, and if it breaks, just to get another one. The second friend found an old turntable in his basement, so he declined my offer, so I installed it in my system.

The original Denon DL103 cartridge sounds great, but I really wanted a more direct comparison to my main table, so I installed one of my spare Ortofon cartridges, matching what I have on the AS2000. Wow, this old direct drive table sounded great in my system, much better than I remember from years ago in my much more modest system. No surprise there, but I was pretty impressed. The Denon/Ortofon does nothing wrong. It is very well balanced, with great weight and body. The sound is very involving and natural. Nothing sticks out and calls attention to itself. There is good extension and what seems like very low distortion. Dynamics and presence are excellent. And the automatic buttons controlling the arm lift and movement are really cool to play with when the lid is down, and it returns the arm and shuts off when the record is finished. How cool is that?

I then listened to my American Sound AS2000. The character is very similar - well balanced, nothing sticks out, very engaging and natural sounding. The difference is in degrees of resolution. There is more nuance to strings, and piano keys hitting the strings. Low bass is more articulate, triangles and cymbals have a quicker, clearer strike and ring. And everything sounds more open. Layering and separation is better. The overall sound is cleaner and a few degrees more natural. But the interesting thing is that the character of the two tables is very similar. Nothing is harsh, hard or cold as I have heard from other turntables in my system here or elsewhere. Both are natural sounding.

I am going to keep this Denon around for a while to play for friends to see what they think. I am really quite astonished that a table that I have owned since 1980 with a nice vintage cartridge I bought on Ebay can sound this natural. I still have a few of my old records from college days. They are up next. This hobby can be a lot of fun.


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The interesting thing to note here is that this particular DD model is far down the list even from Denon’s best efforts let alone Exclusive P3/P10, Yamaha GT-2000, Kenwood L07 etc. There are many levels better sound to be had from old, top-of-the-range DDs.

 

[morricab]

You are welcome Ron. I don’t think one needs to be a starting Audio file to get one of these Denons. A seasoned Audio file might be shocked at how much performance is in these vintage turntables compared to what’s available now. It’s one of the reasons that I do not think there has been any real progress in the hobby for 40 years or more. I could live very happily with this turntable in my system.

You can get a GT-2000 for about 2K from Japan. Best 2k you will ever spend…

 

[Argonaut]

You can get a GT-2000 for about 2K from Japan. Best 2k you will ever spend…

Which would make it (how many times ) less of a performing turntable than an AS 2000 ? Since we are introducing dollar per fidelity as a metric .

 

[Al M.]

Each of us places an idiosyncratic marginal dollar value on the incremental sonic improvement, even if that sonic improvement is subject to severe diminishing returns.

I much prefer my Brinkmann set-up over my Denon set-up. But is the former 60 times better sonically than the latter? No.

Having heard both in your system I concur. I found the Brinkmann far more pleasing to listen to; the sound of the Denon lacked calmness for me.

 

[morricab]

Which would make it (how many times ) less of a performing turntable than an AS 2000 ? Since we are introducing dollar per fidelity as a metric .

Since I haven't heard the AS2000 in person it is hard to say where it sits. However, a friend of mine had a Denon DP45 as well and difference to the GT-2000 (in the GTs favor) was not at all subtle...

 

[Argonaut]

Having heard both in your system I concur. I found the Brinkmann far more pleasing to listen to; the sound of the Denon lacked calmness for me.

Brinkmann Balance / RoNt III is quite an exceptional combination for their buy in , relatively .

 

[morricab]

Having heard both in your system I concur. I found the Brinkmann far more pleasing to listen to; the sound of the Denon lacked calmness for me.

I have a Brinkmann Bardo and, although it is direct drive, has that Brinkmann calmness. The Denon is more edgy sounding but the best DDs from Japan, such as my Yamaha GT-2000 and tables like the Exclusive P3/P10, don't sound edgy at all...just resolving and stable.

 

[DasguteOhr]

for the money the best sounding direct drive turntable jvc victor ql-y77f unrestored 500-600€. recapped electronic& new plinth a phantastic machine.

 

[Argonaut]

I have a Brinkmann Bardo and, although it is direct drive, has that Brinkmann calmness. The Denon is more edgy sounding but the best DDs from Japan, such as my Yamaha GT-2000 and tables like the Exclusive P3/P10, don't sound edgy at all...just resolving and stable.

Yup , Pioneer’s EMC-03 DC motor together with the Pioneer's staple Direct-Drive SHR system (Stable Hanging Rotor) plus EM-03 oil dampened tonearm remain a potent combination to this day.