Yes, all such devices tell you is speed accuracy and consistency information. This of course is important for proper sound. But yes, the sound of the turntable depends on many factors and quality of speed is only one. When I compared the SME Model 30/12 to my friend's SP10 Mk3 in my system using the same V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge, we both preferred the sound of the SME table but the SP10 had better speed performance.
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Yes, all such devices tell you is speed accuracy and consistency information. This of course is important for proper sound. But yes, the sound of the turntable depends on many factors and quality of speed is only one. When I compared the SME Model 30/12 to my friend's SP10 Mk3 in my system using the same V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge, we both preferred the sound of the SME table but the SP10 had better speed performance.
Surely your particular anecdotal experience is interesting and relevant for you.
IMHO "Quality of speed" is just a broad meaningless qualifier. Since long the industry relied of the spectra of wow and flutter and rumble to access the objective characteristics of rotation of turntable platters - still measured in some reviews.
In a subjective hobby, most of the time limited objective data will only help creating bias listening - even hard subjectivists love measurements when they go along with their preference.
No. But in addition to the damping the stock platter has, I applied more in the form of a proper platter pad.
Thanks - I read your excellent past articles on the.SL1200G (starting here https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...llenge-the-state-of-the-art.38300/post-994711 Did you play with the calibration settings?
Those curious of the inside of the SL1200 G can see it at https://www.gcaudio.com/products/technics-sl-1200g-direct-drive-turntable-silver/
Apologies for the question Peter - too interesting to be forgotten and yet related to our current subject!
OK Fransisco, you have kept me busy with your many requests for data. I will let you analyze the numbers. Here is a video of platter free spin with stylus in the groove. I kept the camera on the tachometer until the reading stopped and kept it going until the platter stopped rotating. Surprisingly, the free spin time to stop with the stylus is very close to without the stylus, about 30 minutes. In fact, they are basically the same.
You can see the thread is disengaged and I got the platter up to speed with my hand. Let us know what you conclude, if anything, from the video. For convenience and easy comparison, I will repost the other free spin video with no stylus.
Video with no stylus:
Video with stylus:
Last edited:
Surely your particular anecdotal experience is interesting and relevant for you.
IMHO "Quality of speed" is just a broad meaningless qualifier. Since long the industry relied of the spectra of wow and flutter and rumble to access the objective characteristics of rotation of turntable platters - still measured in some reviews.
In a subjective hobby, most of the time limited objective data will only help creating bias listening - even hard subjectivists love measurements when they go along with their preference.
Surely anecdotal experience is interesting to some. Sharing it with others on a discussion forum when it illustrates and supports a previous comment may not be of any interest to anyone or relevant to you, but I thought I would mention it just in case.
By "quality of speed" I mean both what is captured by standard measurements and also by what is heard and may not be understood or measurable. I have no way to measure wow and flutter here, nor is that my interest. I appreciate that they interest you.
In this subjective hobby, I figure limited objective data like my TimeLine results is more helpful than not. So I shared it for anyone who may be interested. Hard to self analyze about the bias it creates. What is interesting is that few others openly and willingly share similar experiments and data that I am sharing here. If you do not find it helpful or interesting, let me know. I would ask you to share something about your turntables, but I understand you are now focused only on digital with any listening you may be doing to your system. The AF1 data would be interesting to see especially for me because I have had the Micro Seiki and AS 1000 here also. The AF1 though similar in some regards sounds very different in direct comparison.
Last edited:
Thanks Peter. A fast analysis of four points per case shows that measured during the first three minutes the reduction in speed is around 2.5% per minute without stylus and 4.6% per minute with stylus at acceptable speed.
We now have data that people can use if they want to make their own measurements to compare turntable bearing friction. Using the classical formulas of moment of inertia we can compute the power dissipated in the bearing versus speed using the data DDK gave us about the platter.
I only used the data from the first three minutes of videos - data at lower speeds is meaningless and will only add noise and establish confusion.
Fransisco, what do you make of the fact that the platter takes 30 minutes to stop while free spinning both with and without the needle in the groove? This would seem to say something different about stylus drag, namely that it has little influence on the total time it takes for the platter to stop spinning. It seems to contradict the behaviour early on. I understand your point that you want the data close to what is happening at the 33.333RPM speed. But we do not listen when motor is not engaged and the speed never drops below 33.331RPM when I am listening. It remains between 33.331 and 33.334 and that variation is completely inaudible to me. Could anyone hear it?
I do not see how the same free spin time to stop is not relevant when discussing bearing friction. Do you have any data on bearing friction from other turntables?
The time the platter takes to stop has no comparative meaning at all. Do you play your LPs at 20 or 10 rpm? Specially considering that after a few minutes the tachometer only shows RPM down to around 29 RPM.
I just wanted to evaluate the bearing friction in the condition of operation in a way I can compare with other bearing types. I do not have such information now, but hope to carry some measurements in the future.
My main interest now was comparing the slow down with and without stylus. As I can calculate platter drag I now have a method to calculate stylus friction. Surely data coming from a free spinning 40 kg air bearing platter is of great interest to compare with data from other articles.
Surely 5 minutes of data taken with the stylus at 50% of the LP playing time would be welcome!
That is true about comparative meaning. But then we do not listen to music from a turntable with the motor unattached either, so what are we really learning hear? We see that at close to 33.333RPM, stylus drag is real, even on a massive platter like this one. But the motor addresses that and we get very steady and accurate speed.
Based on these two videos without the motor attached, I observe this:
1. When spinning close to 33.333RPM with the needle in the groove, the platter slows down about 0.045 RPM each revolution and takes 3:13 until the tach turns off around 29 RPM.
2. When spinning close to 33.333RPM with the needle not in the groove, the platter slows down about 0.026 RPM each revolution and takes 5:30 until the tach turns off around 29 RPM.
Clearly there is measurable stylus drag when the platter is spinning faster. Also interesting is that the rate that the platter slows down per revolution is very steady in both cases during the first few minutes while the tach has a reading.
What I find fascinating however, is that the platter takes the same amount of time free spinning to stop with or without the needle in the groove. I agree this is not how we listen to music, but nor is it with motor detached. Stylus drag and free spin time might tell us something in isolation, but what really matters is the end listening result of the platter and bearing design while influenced by the motor and connection plus all the other factors in the overall design and implementation that combine to produce what we hear.
Turntables are designed to play records and however a platter is controlled it does so with a stylus in the groove. I speculate that while stylus drag may be a physical event it does not cause a sonic event. I don't know if stylus friction changes within the radius of the record but, again speculating, if it does not and remains constant then as a constant it is imperceptible in and of itself, though maybe it effects the overall character of the table? I don't know within what fraction of a second stylus drag (friction) starts. Typically the stylus is on the record before we hear music. When the stylus touches the record -- the moment drag initiates -- do you see the rpm change on the meter? My Monaco gives no indication, not even the faintest flicker of platter adjustment or correction. (It reports on the platter over 160,000 times per second.)
Similar threads
