Natural Sound

[christoph]

"...your tribe...? Wow. I do not see anyone "needing" to be energized, but you and Elliot are suddenly and surprisingly joining the conversation. I would have never expected such a very strange comment coming from you, Mike. I am sorry to have read that on my thread.

And the word "hater" is almost more frequently used on WBF than "natural"
Who would have guessed that a month ago

 

[microstrip]

(...) No, Fransisco, the title to this thread was very clear and deliberate for me, and I have no regrets.

OK, I assume you are pleased that your system thread is the bloody arena for regular WBF fights. It is the price to pay for a catchier book end tittle.

 

[PeterA]

Excellent find AL. M,

Please note that the tittle is "Natural" Sound , Ron as usually being a careful writer. We were discussing natural in general according to our own views, not a particular preference. The apostrophes were wisely used.

I disagree Fransisco. I find the use of apostrophes for adjectives to have loaded meaning. If someone writes to me that the apple he or she is eating is "red" or "tasty" with apostrophes, it changes the meaning for me. Here is a "red" apple. What the heck does that mean? And now here on WBF, someone were to describe the sound of a system as "natural" instead of natural, I would be skeptical about what he or she means.

 

[PeterA]

OK, I assume you are pleased that your system thread is the bloody arena for regular WBF fights. It is the price to pay for a catchier book end tittle.

Assume what you want. I just told you that your last assumption was quite wrong, and I explained why. This thread has been very revealing on many levels, as have the private messages and email exchanges that I have had recently. I appreciate being able to formulate my ideas about the hobby and share them here.

Arenas are interesting places. I do not think this one is very bloody. People go inside to challenge each other. Some come out more bruised than others.

 

[Argonaut]

but it's personal between us when you start calling me hater in this thread and other names in other threads

I have no dog in this particular bear pit however I have to agree, referring to another member by using such a descriptor tends toward the ugly and runs contrary to the ethos and AUP of this place.
One may disagree with a point of view made by another member and refute said view , thats entirely reasonable however remaining civil tends to carry a little more respectability than not.

 

[tima]

A friend had Lamm gear for a time in Seattle, I don’t recall the models, they were not tube/ss hybrid amps. Its been a long while since I heard them and the entire system so perhaps my comment was out of place. My point was more about Konstantinos of Pilium describing wanting to create a very “natural” sounding amplifier ...

Thanks for your follow-up Bob.

 

[Al M.]

It never occured to me to use "My SET and Corner Horn System", for instance.

With such a title it would much more easily have been confined to a system thread proper, instead of stirring up controversy stretching over dozens of pages.

 

[Al M.]

Excellent find AL. M,

Please note that the tittle is "Natural" Sound , Ron as usually being a careful writer. We were discussing natural in general according to our own views, not a particular preference. The apostrophes were wisely used.

I have to thank Tim for finding this.

 

[tima]

I don't meander philosophically about this subject as a producer of goods I delve in the real and tangible, one word is more than I need. I mention particular gear vintage or modern because the best is always limited and this is WBF

 

[tima]

You might also read one of Aaron Copeland's books on listening to music where he goes into great detail about music listening is both an analytical and emotional process and experience.

+1

The experience we have listening to music at that "intuitive level" is rooted in primitive limbic functions of awareness -- deep in our lizard brain. McGill University scientists observed that consonance and dissonance will light up the limbic systems responsible for pleasurable and negative emotions appropriately. The non-cognitive experience of music can trigger areas in the brain sufficient to cause the release of endorphins; when they reach the limbic system’s opioid receptors, feelings of satisfaction ensue. In his book What to Listen for in Music, American composer Aaron Copland talks about this in different terms, describing how a fundamental aspect of enjoying music takes place on a "sensuous plane," which is "a kind of brainless but attractive state of mind [that] is engendered by the mere sound appeal of music." [it goes on ...]

There is a lot to learn from Copland.
Isbn: 978-0451226402

 

[PeterA]

With such a title it would much more easily have been confined to a system thread proper, instead of stirring up controversy stretching over dozens of pages.

The controversy is not from the thread title, Al. The controversy is from my decision to abandon the status quo and move in a completely different direction from what I had been doing. The same thing happened when I auditioned fancy power cords with friends and we disagreed on the sound. Also when I pointed my speakers straightahead and that lead to arguments. The last chapter of the sublime sound thread deteriorated as well as I started abandoning accessories and tweaks and adopted a less conventional approach.

I remember the first time I went to Utah and I came back and I mentioned to my friends in the local Boston audio group that I had just heard the best sound of my life and the pushback started right then, long before I ever wrote the thread describing my thoughts. My snide reply at the time was it no longer matters to me what other people think, I know what I have to do with my system. I sold the whole thing a few months later. Then I wrote the thread.

I have discussed privately with some folks the nature of these discussions and why this topic seems so controversial. It’s a curious thing. I have my theories.

 

[morricab]

The controversy is not from the thread title, Al. The controversy is from my decision to abandon the status quo and move in a completely different direction from what I had been doing. The same thing happened when I auditioned fancy power cords with friends and we disagreed on the sound. Also when I pointed my speakers straightahead and that lead to arguments. The last chapter of the sublime sound thread deteriorated as well as I started abandoning accessories and tweaks and adopted a less conventional approach.

I remember the first time I went to Utah and I came back and I mentioned to my friends in the local Boston audio group that I had just heard the best sound of my life and the pushback started right then, long before I ever wrote the thread describing my thoughts. My snide reply at the time was it no longer matters to me what other people think, I know what I have to do with my system. I sold the whole thing a few months later. Then I wrote the thread.

I have discussed privately with some folks the nature of these discussions and why this topic seems so controversial. It’s a curious thing. I have my theories.

I for one think you are on the right way to natural sound. I applauded your switch from typical high end to what expected to give you a more realistic musical representation. I did the journey over a much longer time period, first through the electronics and then eventually finding speakers that can do justice to dynamics (the one thing lacking in my big planars) and not scarifice the benefits of other designs.
I have taken a fair amount of heat on WBF for saying that overall, I think a good SET is the best amp approach and coupled with a good horn this will get you the most realistic reproduction currently available. Those who don’t believe or feel threatened by that position will often pushback hard…

I still love the purity of a good planar and big ones can even approach horn dynamics but not with the best amps and this is a weakness. The Alsyvox are one of the first and few planars that gets really close…thus the excitement over them… the Apogee promise realised but for mad money.

 

[ddk]

Unfortunately at this point your suggestion becomes a serious answer. I assume that it was only by ignorance that you used the words "Natural Sound" as the tittle of your system thread - anyone knowing that the words have been used with a very different and much more embracing meaning in audio writings along decades would avoid spreading confusion in his own system thread.

@PeterA you should come up with a manual for the perpetually perplexed! Why don't you come up with a headline and start your own system thread Francisco, based on your own philosophy without quoting others to guide all the whiny perplexed!

david

 

[BlueFox]

It would seem that any sound made by an instrument, whether live or recorded, is unnatural.

 

[microstrip]

@PeterA you should come up with a manual for the perpetually perplexed! Why don't you come up with a headline and start your own system thread Francisco, based on your own philosophy without quoting others to guide all the whiny perplexed!

david

Unfortunately it seems you do not understand the concept of a free forum where people debate stereo ideas and concepts in any thread. Also please note that it was not me that entered Harry Pearson in this thread.

 

[microstrip]

The controversy is not from the thread title, Al. The controversy is from my decision to abandon the status quo and move in a completely different direction from what I had been doing. The same thing happened when I auditioned fancy power cords with friends and we disagreed on the sound. Also when I pointed my speakers straightahead and that lead to arguments. The last chapter of the sublime sound thread deteriorated as well as I started abandoning accessories and tweaks and adopted a less conventional approach.

No Peter. The controversy is not on your system and choices. We respect them. The controversy comes from your systematic misrepresentation of other preferences and choices to justify your own choices, and your permanent desire to consider other choices "artificial".

And sorry, your steel plates are tweaks, similar in concept to the tweaks used by many other audiophiles, as well as your cheap cables. Your approach is as conventional as any other audiophile.

 

[Al M.]

I was responding to your flippant response to Al's remarks about how he listens to music. (posts 2839, 2841 and 2843). It's a subject I find interesting, unlike tired and sad analog/digital debates which have nothing to do with what he was saying. Try reading those posts again without having a knee-jerk reaction. You might also read one of Aaron Copeland's books on listening to music where he goes into great detail about how music listening is both an analytical and emotional process and experience.

Thank you, Wil. Apparently we have a similar approach to listening. And of course, you are right, this has nothing to do with the analog/digital debate. I have strived to listen in the manner described in those posts since early adulthood, and for a whole decade before switching from vinyl to CD.

 

[Al M.]

I see that both you, and Al M, lack any sort of LP playback device (or reel-to-reel) in your listed equipment sections so suspect that both of you listen to digital. Perhaps that explains why you cannot conceive of a music playback system capable of presenting a Natural Sound.

I am regularly exposed to great vinyl in my friends' systems. That includes hearing Peter A.'s Natural Sound system in person, not just over digital video.

 

[ddk]

Unfortunately it seems you do not understand the concept of a free forum where people debate stereo ideas and concepts in any thread.

I’m not the one continuously telling people what they should call their thread or that their title was chosen out of ignorance. Is that what you call a debate?

Also please note that it was not me that entered Harry Pearson in this thread.

Really?

Yes, but as far as see it, a key point of your particular "Natural Sound" is the perspective of Vladimir Lamm about sound reproduction, psychoacoustics and his mathematical models of human hearing. It is why I can't see how people can trace it back to HP writings.
.

david

 

[tima]

Now I am curious. What is the certain ordinary wire that allows us to appreciate the character of Lamm?

I cannot speak for us. Look at my profile 'About' page. That's all I can say.