Network Improvements and their Impact on Sound Quality

[mercury999]

There's a lot of talk about the Ubiquiti Edge Router. I got one but have yet to get it to function in my system.
In any case, I'm wondering if there's something special about this router that my Cisco 2960 Gigabit switch doesn't also deliver?

I haven’t been able to compare the Edge X to any other router except the Verizon Fios router. I believe the most important thing is to have a router dedicated to your audio system with no other devices connected to it.

 

[LeBlanc]

Thanks for all the great posts about the impact enhancing your network can make on a system. I recently bought an EdgeRouter X and wanted to share my experience with you. I have a Verizon Fios router (3100) and wanted to see the impact a dedicated router would have on the sound of my system. My Verizion Fios router is in my family room- and about 50 feet (copper wire) from my dedicated listening room in the basement. I put the Edge router in the basement a few feet from my system. I connected a Wireworld Starlight 8 ethernet cable from my router to an EtherRegen, and a Sablon Audio ethernet cable from the EtherRegen to my UltraRendu streamer. The Ultrarendu is connected to my DAC by a Sablon Audio usb cable. I also have Emerald Physics dipole speakers, twin Syzygy subs, a Spread Spectrum Technology Son of Ampzilla amp and an Exogal Comet DAC. I inserted the Edge router in my system with the standard power supply and noticed a nice (not subtle) improvement in resolution and soundstage depth. It was if layers of haze that I had accepted as normal (and didn't realize was there) for my system were cleared away. What I didn't expect was the incremental difference a LPS would make on top of what I already heard with the Edge router. I purchased a Small Green Computer 12v, 50 watt LPS and inserted it into my system today. I couldn't believe the difference it made.

The bass in my system is now amazing. I don't understand how a LPS for my router could have such a profound effect on the sound of my system. The two biggest things I now hear are: 1) bass is cleaner with more slam. The bass has always been a challenge for the dipole speakers. My subs do a nice job of filling in the lower register, but the integration with the dipole speakers is just ok. What I now hear is a dramatic improvement; and 2) the soundstage is deeper. The effects were not subtle. Like Rhapsody described in his earlier posts, I was absolutely stunned by what I heard. The Sablon usb and ethernet cables made a major improvement in the sound of my system. But the network changes I've made, along with the EtherRegen, improved the sound as much as the new cables did (which is a lot!). I feel like I've gotten a new amp. As many of you have described in this forum, getting the network right is the foundation for everything else. I have a level of emotional engagement with the music that I haven't had before. All for a much cheaper cost than upgrading my amp, streamer or DAC. There is no mistaking the improvement I've heard.

Are you using the Edge Router X as a router or as an additional switch? And have you tried an LPS on your Verizon router before installing the Edge Router X?

 

[octaviars]

The specs say the Edge X SFP I have can take a power supply from 9 - 26V, 2.5 amps

@wil

This is correct that you can use 9-26vdc on the Edge routers but you only need 24vdc if you use PoE on any of the rj45 ports.

I have tried mine with different voltages and today I run mine with 15Vdc and it draws less than 0,2A (I use two RJ45 ports and SFP).

 

[mercury999]

Are you using the Edge Router X as a router or as an additional switch? And have you tried an LPS on your Verizon router before installing the Edge Router X?

Yes, I'm using the Edge Router X as a switch (there is an option in the basic setup menu to configure it as a switch). I did not try the LPS on my Verizon router before installing the Edge router- that's next on the list.

 

[mercury999]

@wil

This is correct that you can use 9-26vdc on the Edge routers but you only need 24vdc if you use PoE on any of the rj45 ports.

I have tried mine with different voltages and today I run mine with 15Vdc and it draws less than 0,2A (I use two RJ45 ports and SFP).

Thanks for clarifying!

 

[OAudio]

Hi,

I am familiar with the impact that network software and hardware configurations, (on connected music servers and audio end point devices), can have on sound quality. So I do whole heartedly buy into the theme of the thread. There are a lot of people here getting significant sound quality up ticks rolling lan switches.

I don't use lan switches, in my system anything such as switches I have tried in the network path has a negative impact on sound quality. Reading the thread I can see others are having different experiences. I'm just not clear on the precise reason for adding the additional lan switches, I think I'm missing somthing, it would help to get some thoughts on the following.

Are the switches compensating in some way for the music servers and audio devices in peoples systems not playing nicely with one another when they are directly connected with a back to back network cable ?

Would it not be the case that additional Lan switches in the path of audio data at playback time introduce latency, additional IP packet processing, an additional clock domain in the data's path and signal integrity unknowns at the additional lan interfaces.

Is there a reason for not just using a decent back to back patch cable between the music file source and audio endpoint / network audio bridge ?

If the network interfaces are properly implemented in the music server and audio end point (for timing, signal integrity, interrupt processing etc) AND conducted noise between the connected devices is managed then there is no need for an additional switch ?

Thanks.

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi,

I am familiar with the impact that network software and hardware configurations, (on connected music servers and audio end point devices), can have on sound quality. So I do whole heartedly buy into the theme of the thread. There are a lot of people here getting significant sound quality up ticks rolling lan switches.

I don't use lan switches, in my system anything such as switches I have tried in the network path has a negative impact on sound quality. Reading the thread I can see others are having different experiences. I'm just not clear on the precise reason for adding the additional lan switches, I think I'm missing somthing, it would help to get some thoughts on the following.

Are the switches compensating in some way for the music servers and audio devices in peoples systems not playing nicely with one another when they are directly connected with a back to back network cable ?

Would it not be the case that additional Lan switches in the path of audio data at playback time introduce latency, additional IP packet processing, an additional clock domain in the data's path and signal integrity unknowns at the additional lan interfaces.

Is there a reason for not just using a decent back to back patch cable between the music file source and audio endpoint / network audio bridge ?

If the network interfaces are properly implemented in the music server and audio end point (for timing, signal integrity, interrupt processing etc) AND conducted noise between the connected devices is managed then there is no need for an additional switch ?

Thanks.

Welcome. Did you read Romazs' post #163? Do you think we would be adding switches/LPSs to our systems if they did not make a sonic upgrade to the SQ?

May I ask what is your system comprised of?....thx

 

[gds7368]

My Roon Nucleus Plus (first floor listening room) is connected over the network to a Synology NAS (in the basement). Would it sound better if I physically placed/connected the NAS right next to the Nucleus Plus? If so, would it connect by USB?

 

[Rhapsody]

My Roon Nucleus Plus (first floor listening room) is connected over the network to a Synology NAS (in the basement). Would it sound better if I physically placed/connected the NAS right next to the Nucleus Plus? If so, would it connect by USB?

I don't think you will know unless you try it, no matter what anyone says. Not sure about the best sounding connection, that also would have to be tried if you have options ie, usb, spdif, Aes/ebu to see which you prefer. They probably all would sound a bit different, but I'm just guessing.

 

[nuway]

I haven’t been able to compare the Edge X to any other router except the Verizon Fios router. I believe the most important thing is to have a router dedicated to your audio system with no other devices connected to it.

Hi mercury999, I am glad of your success with the Edgerouter, as you I also have it and also makes a difference in my system. Could you please double check if your edgerouter is in fact configured in router mode. I have mine in switch mode (attached pic)?

 

[auricgoldfinger]

There's a lot of talk about the Ubiquiti Edge Router. I got one but have yet to get it to function in my system.
In any case, I'm wondering if there's something special about this router that my Cisco 2960 Gigabit switch doesn't also deliver?

Better sound quality.

 

[matthias]

Did someone compare EdgeRouter-X(w/o SFP) vs EdgeRouter-X-SFP?
Fiber seems not to be used very often with the EdgeRouter-X-SFP.
Thanks

Matt

 

[OAudio]

Thank you for the welcome,

Welcome. Did you read Romazs' post #163? Do you think we would be adding switches/LPSs to our systems if they did not make a sonic upgrade to the SQ?

May I ask what is your system comprised of?....thx

Ah, I missed Romazs' post #163, it's very interesting. In particular Romazs' para below sumarises thinking in the areas I raised questions. It lines up well with my personal experience of trialing a couple of lan switches. They appear to provide some isolation but also a level of signature. I haven't much experience of lan switches beyond this but could certainly see how different chip-sets, board implementations and PSUs could really improve sound quality performance.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC).

May I ask what is your system comprised of?....thx

Of course, I listen using the following:

Tablet RCD session to Music Server PC => Wifi => BT Home Hub Switch => Gig E =>
PC Music Server (music file storage) => Gig E back to back patch cable => Audio PC (XX HighEnd) => USB => Phasure NOS1 Dac => Orelo MII Speakers

The network link most influential to sound quality in the system is the Gig E back to back patch cable between the Music Server and Audio PC. The system is configured to pre-transfer audio data files from the music server to the Audio PC before playback starts, so no audio data transfer is happening during playback across this network link. However both the Remote Desktop Session data from the Music Server to the Audio Server and the SMB File Share session between the Audio PC and the Music Server remain live during playback.

It was something of a surprise to learn that even this near dormant back to back network link really matters to sound quality when the system is playing. The connections through the wifi router back to the control tablet also matter but far less. The first thought when developing the PC Servers for the system was that the Music Server could just be a "light duty" PC for the simple task of storing files and deliver them over the back to back network link before the Audio PC starts playback. This turned out to be an entirely wrong assumption. The system reached a considerable turning point with the realisation that the network "responsiveness" of the Music Server PC and the conducted electrical noise between the Music Server and Audio Server over this network link were absolutely critical to sound quality (even though the Music Server has no direct role in the playback of music data). After fours years of development on the Audio Server and latterly the Music Music Server platforms, sound quality is now startling textured and real.

Real focus on the network's influence on sound quality was originally well down my list of items to address as I development the servers, but it turned out to be hugely important to the system's sound. So I am defiantly lined up with the thinking in the thread that network can be a big factor in sound quality even when its not carrying the playing data stream !

On the subject of linear supplies, I agree they can provide a great return on the investment in terms of sound quality. For my system, in the end, it took 2 years of R&D and of close auditioned to develop and tune the linear supplies that sit in the Audio Server and Music Server. Among other things these linear supplies are matched to help reduce conducted noise across the network link. As an aside the Music Server is based on a 32 thread Xeon CPU and Intel 621 motherboard. Iv been very busy with this and its packed with innovations not even seen in the commercial 621 based system popular on this site .

My system is perhaps an outlying case for the thread in that the key network link for the system is a back to back patch cable link. However has required a lot of effort to optimize Servers (hardware and software) at each end to improve sound quality and to manage conducted noise over the network. I haven't used an additional switch in my case but I hope the point is again that network really matters. I hope that this is a useful additional data point in the the thread debate.

Edit grammar 15:57 05/05/20.

 

[Rhapsody]

Thank you for the welcome,

Ah, I missed Romazs' post #163, it's very interesting. In particular Romazs' para below sumarises thinking in the areas I raised questions. It lines up well with my personal experience of trialing a couple of lan switches. They appear to provide some isolation but also a level of signature. I haven't much experience of lan switches beyond this but could certainly see how different chip-sets, board implementations and PSUs could really improve sound quality performance.







Of course, I listen using the following:

Tablet RCD session to Music Server PC => Wifi => BT Home Hub Switch => Gig E =>
PC Music Server (music file storage) => Gig E back to back patch cable => Audio PC (XX HighEnd) => USB => Phasure NOS1 Dac => Orelo MII Speakers

The network link most influential to sound quality in the system is the Gig E back to back patch cable between the Music Server and Audio PC. The system is configured to pre-transfer audio data files from the music server to the Audio PC before playback starts, so no audio data transfer is happening during playback across this network link. However both the Remote Desktop Session data from the Music Server to the Audio Server and the SMB File Share session between the Audio PC and the Music Server remain live during playback.

It was something of a surprise to learn that even this near dormant back to back network link really matters to sound quality when the system is playing. The connections through the wifi router back to the control tablet also matter but far less. The first thought when developing the PC Servers for the system was that the Music Server could just be a "light duty" PC with the simple task of storing files and deliver them over the back to back network link before the Audio PC playback starts. This turned out to be an entirely wrong assumption, the system reached a considerable turning point for with the realisation that the network "responsiveness" of the Music Server PC and the conducted electrical noise between the Music Server and Audio Server over this network link were absolutely critical to sound quality (even though the Music Server has no direct role in the playback of music file data). After fours years of development of the Audio Server and latterly the Music Music Server platforms and the sound quality is now startling textured and real.

Real focus on the network's influence on sound quality was well down the list of items to address as I development the servers, but it turned out to be hugely important to the system's sound. So I am defiantly lined up with the thinking in the thread that network can be a big factor in sound quality even when its not carrying the playing stream !

On the subject of linear supplies, I agree they can provide a great return for the investment in terms of sound quality. For my system in the end it took 2 years of R&D and close auditioned tuning to develop the linear supply that powers sit in the Audio Server and Music Server, among other things these linear supplies help to reduce conducted noise across the network link. As an aside the Music server is based on a 32 thread Xeon CPU and Intel 621 motherboard. Iv been busy very with this and its packed with innovations not even seen even in the commercial 621 based system popular on this site .

My system is perhaps a an outlying case for the thread in that the key network link in the system is a back to back patch cable link. However has required a lot of effort to optimize Server's (hardware and software) at each end to and improve sound quality and manage conducted noise over the network. I haven't used an additional switch in my case but I hope the point is again that network really matters. I hope that this is a useful additional data point in the the thread debate.

Thx and don't mind me, I just like seeing peoples speakers I had not heard of the Orelo Speakers, they look cool. Are the speakers active? You don't mention an integrated or pre/amps.

My thoughts are that what might work in one system for a particular person may or may not provide the same results in another system for it's owner/listener. I read your description a few times. I would have to hear it to have any idea which is unusual as I can usually take a guess on what it would sound like, but not in this case.

Thx for sharing!!!

 

[OAudio]

Thx and don't mind me, I just like seeing peoples speakers I had not heard of the Orelo Speakers, they look cool. Are the speakers active? You don't mention an integrated or pre/amps.

My thoughts are that what might work in one system for a particular person may or may not provide the same results in another system for it's owner/listener. I read your description a few times. I would have to hear it to have any idea which is unusual as I can usually take a guess on what it would sound like, but not in this case.

Thx for sharing!!!

Yes, I like looking up speakers as well, often the most attractive part of a system, your Kubalas look a very nice design.

The Orelos are three way active. The mid / highs are via the concentric Mid / Hi horn and Bass by the 15" horn loaded drivers. Bass cross over uses a DSP that extends the response down to 17hz. Overall they manage 118db/w.

That's some system you have and I just noticed that you have a Taiko Extreme Server, very nice. I had planned to look them out at Munich this year to take a listen but it won't be this year due to the lock downs. No complaints though, I just wish such a minor inconvenience was the worst people are having to face at the moment.

 

[cat6man]

Hi mercury999, I am glad of your success with the Edgerouter, as you I also have it and also makes a difference in my system. Could you please double check if your edgerouter is in fact configured in router mode. I have mine in switch mode (attached pic)?

can you clarify how this attached figure shows switch mode vs. router mode?
i see your ports are listed as 'switch' while mine are listed as 'ethernet'

where/how did you change ports from 'ethernet' to 'switch'?
i see a 'switch' wizard setup page but i'm not clear what that page should be set up as

 

[joaovieira]

Did someone compare EdgeRouter-X(w/o SFP) vs EdgeRouter-X-SFP?
Fiber seems not to be used very often with the EdgeRouter-X-SFP.
Thanks

Matt

I am waiting for a LPS 1.2 and two Planet Tech SFP to try fiber to Edge Router X from my main router. I will post any conclusions.
The LPS1.2 will also be on the internet company router to figure out the impact the change might have on SQ.

 

[mercury999]

Hi mercury999, I am glad of your success with the Edgerouter, as you I also have it and also makes a difference in my system. Could you please double check if your edgerouter is in fact configured in router mode. I have mine in switch mode (attached pic)?

Hi Nuway-
I'm not sure how to read the diagram you sent. I used the Edge installation wizard to configure the Edge X as a layer 2 switch by providing a fixed IP address and selecting the DHCP option.

Chris

 

[mercury999]

Did someone compare EdgeRouter-X(w/o SFP) vs EdgeRouter-X-SFP?
Fiber seems not to be used very often with the EdgeRouter-X-SFP.
Thanks

Matt

t
Hi Matt-
I bought the Edge X SFP and don't use the fiber connection port. I wanted to have the flexibility to add fiber later.

Chris

 

[wil]

I tried both, Matt, and they each have something to offer.

Through the 1Gbps ports, the signature is a bit more forward and direct. There is better control and sounds start and stop more precisely. Decay is shorter but not in an unnatural way. Instrument lines are easier to discern as transients are expressed with greater clarity but surprisingly, dynamic drive is very good both ways. Some might say this presentation is more accurate, especially for orchestral music.

Through the 100Mbps ports, the signature has a velvety smooth and supple presentation but still highly resolved. It is a more idealized sound but still very natural sounding. It is less dry and more ethereal in the treble. Sounds float in air and linger longer. The presentation is less fatiguing. As above, while there is a softness, dynamics is still very good. I could easily see some people preferring this presentation, especially for harsh recordings or when you're just looking to relax or listen for hours.

There is no right or wrong and both presentations have the ability to bring goosebumps. I for one appreciate the option of both presentations.

A couple of questions on the Melco? And thanks for your detailed and thoughtful information!

-- If one is using more than one switch in line, such as the Edge (as a switch) + Melco + EtherRegen, is there any issue using the different switches at different speeds? For instance: Edge(gigabit)>Melco 100mbs >eR A side at gigabit.

-- If one were to attach non audio devices like a computer to the Melco 100 Mbs port and the audio lan to a gigabit port, would that provide isolation between the two?