New Album & The Beginning of Basketball Season

I just read somewhere that Scottie Pippen said LeBron James may be a better all-around player than Michael Jordan. Kinda of a stab in the back to someone you played with for years, won championships with and are supposed to have loyalty too. Funny it kinda reminded me of a movie trailer I saw recently. Puts everything in perspective!!!

 
Hi

ABout MJ , etc... I am not a Lebron fan.. yet it must be said he is extraordinary... He is what Magic Johnson could have been had he not blown his knees the second year with the Lakers... People seem to forget that Magic had to adjust his games when he could no longer fly like he could in his colege and rookie years thus the slight stutter in his steps ... Lebron can do it all. pass, score, rebound .. His defense is good not stellar and that is where MJ surpass them all but in term of raw talent he is as close to MJ as anybody maybe closer than Kobe, my favorite player ...

He seems to lack the sheer intensity of MJ and the incredible clutch ability , that seems to be one of his few weaknesses .. Kobe has that but Kobe doesn't pass or rebound nearly as well .. Kobe is a better scorer and IMO a more spectacular player ...
Lebron remains a special player and likely one of the best anyone would have seen ... In my book he ranks extremely high .. maybe amongst the best five I have seen ..

Then we have to cast a more serious look at Dirk Nowintzki ... How come we forgot how extraordinary he is .. Have you ever seen a player shooting from ANY foot as well? A 7-foot passing as well? He can do it all .. His ball handling abilities are those of a 6-foot point guard ... What separates him from the best ever seems to be mental .. He doesn't seem to have the crushing desire to win (MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird in recent memory) .. but right now he is playing at an elevated level and deserves a championship ... Unfortunately he has two of the best ever on his path .. D-Wade and LBJ plus Bosh can routinely score 20 points every night with the occsional 30 and 40 any given night.. Looks to me they will prevail ..
Shold be a Great Finale .. Both teams have steamrolled their opponents .. including two extremely good and young teams ...
 
If there's an edge I see in the Mavs for next week finals, I mean aside from the obvious factor that is Dirk Nowitzki, it's the court generalship of Jason Kidd. I hope to see him keeping the composure when they need to score a basket by his heady distribution of the ball. His presence makes guys like Chandler, Haywood, and Marion add more points to the Dallas offense as these guys are not self-creating offensive players. That is where D.Rose faltered, he was tasked to be the point guard AND the shooting guard. He dribbled too much at the high post, then run cross-wise to shoot the ball himself - a 2-man job that became 1, and he missed many of those, specially in crunch time. Kidd would pass first, then when open, take the shot if there's no option.

And one more thing I hope to see next week, is better officiating. How many times have I heard van Gundy, or Mark Jackson, on a replay said - 'that's not a foul' ? And I agree mostly. Soft touches, let it go. And flagrant 1 for an accidental slap of the face after going for the ball. Man, possible 4 point play. Flagrant fouls must have clear intent to hurt without going for the ball, if I heard that right. These can ruin the composure of teams and turn them into frustrated and drained players, which to me is a bit unfair. And those possession calls that are one way now, and reversed the other way in a few seconds. And those small steps that lift the pivot foot that were not called, I even saw on a replay how Jason Kidd hit a 3 after moving his right foot twice, and the shot was counted. I recall watching the LAL-Pistons Finals when Isaiah Thomas had a sprained ankle, that was a very physical series but I think the officiating was very well done then. Real fouls were real fouls and they were called as it were. And that was the kind of Finals basketball I truly enjoyed.
 
I just read somewhere that Scottie Pippen said LeBron James may be a better all-around player than Michael Jordan. Kinda of a stab in the back to someone you played with for years, won championships with and are supposed to have loyalty too. Funny it kinda reminded me of a movie trailer I saw recently. Puts everything in perspective!!!

That pronouncement should, more than anything else, put more pressure on Lebron to win a championship NOW to start his quest for 6 rings like MJ. Not that James needed it or asked for it, but Scottie just spoke his piece.
 
If there's an edge I see in the Mavs for next week finals, I mean aside from the obvious factor that is Dirk Nowitzki, it's the court generalship of Jason Kidd. I hope to see him keeping the composure when they need to score a basket by his heady distribution of the ball. His presence makes guys like Chandler, Haywood, and Marion add more points to the Dallas offense as these guys are not self-creating offensive players. That is where D.Rose faltered, he was tasked to be the point guard AND the shooting guard. He dribbled too much at the high post, then run cross-wise to shoot the ball himself - a 2-man job that became 1, and he missed many of those, specially in crunch time. Kidd would pass first, then when open, take the shot if there's no option.

And one more thing I hope to see next week, is better officiating. How many times have I heard van Gundy, or Mark Jackson, on a replay said - 'that's not a foul' ? And I agree mostly. Soft touches, let it go. And flagrant 1 for an accidental slap of the face after going for the ball. Man, possible 4 point play. Flagrant fouls must have clear intent to hurt without going for the ball, if I heard that right. These can ruin the composure of teams and turn them into frustrated and drained players, which to me is a bit unfair. And those possession calls that are one way now, and reversed the other way in a few seconds. And those small steps that lift the pivot foot that were not called, I even saw on a replay how Jason Kidd hit a 3 after moving his right foot twice, and the shot was counted. I recall watching the LAL-Pistons Finals when Isaiah Thomas had a sprained ankle, that was a very physical series but I think the officiating was very well done then. Real fouls were real fouls and they were called as it were. And that was the kind of Finals basketball I truly enjoyed.

I stopped watching B-Ball when it turned into strangle ball (Think Ewing's Knicks vs Miller's Pacers) the league tried to go the other way and suddenly we get black top moves and matador D (Think Iverson's Sixers or D'Angleo Suns). I really like the balance now and that's why I'm watching again. There's so much movement and spacing now because players aren't just so much more athletic, they've become multidimensional and capable of performing multiple roles. It's a coach's dream. The result is that team strategy trumps superstar breakouts and thuggery. The soccer style flopping is wimpy as all heck and I think that gives the impression that teams aren't allowed to play tough D but watch the games closely enough and it's more an exception than the rule.
 
From NBA.com

LeBron the Chosen One, but definitely not the Beloved One

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/featur...bron-james-feature/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

It pretty much sums up what all of us here have been saying, most notably Bob Lerner

Yup. Same here. He needs to win his first ring to be called 'great' or anything like that. In the event he does not win his ring this month, he will have to contend with the 'world' feasting on his failure. And now I read he will even guard Dirk at times. Rose is 6'3" and Dirk is 7'0". This I'd like to see.
 
A rest days always gives us a little time for other NBA news. :)

Kareem now gets into the picture.


Tue May 31 05:55pm EDT
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s nasty open letter to Scottie Pippen

By Kelly Dwyer

It's a tricky situation, navigating all these barroom hypothetical arguments about who's done what and who was the best at whatever. But there are some things people are missing, when it comes to Scottie Pippen's continued annihilation of the 2010-11 Chicago Bulls, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's patronizing tsk-tsk'ing of Pippen after the former Bull dared compare LeBron James'(notes) potential legacy to that of Michael Jordan's.

As you no doubt know, last week Pippen called his former teammate Michael Jordan "the greatest scorer to ever play the game," before going on to point out that LeBron James "may be the greatest player to ever play the game." Not, "LeBron James has already caught up to and/or passed Michael Jordan in terms of accomplishments," but that he may someday be the greatest ever. Pippen's right. No player with James' skills and athleticism has ever graced the NBA. If he doesn't retire as the best, then something will have gone wrong.

And though endless people took horrified offense at the thought of James and the sainted Jordan being referred to in the same breath, Kareem took umbrage at the first part of Pippen's statement in an open letter to his Hall of Fame counterpart. That he was the greatest scorer ever when, how dare you, Kareem scored more points than anyone in NBA history.

Kareem couches this personal offense with one buried mention (signing his open letter to Pippen with "Affectionately, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, NBA's All-Time Leading Scorer"; Jordan holds the NBA's best per-game scoring average) after several paragraphs spent building up the accomplishments of Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell. Kareem wants to know why Jordan never averaged 50 in a season, nor dropped a hundred in a game, like Wilt did. He wants to know why Jordan never managed 11 rings, as Russell did.

He also kind of wants to be a jerk about it.

"You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams."

After rattling off this series of statistics, Abdul-Jabbar chides Pippen "to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever," before reminding (?) Pippen that "the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics." So, erm, why even bring up Chamberlain? Because Robert Horry and Steve Kerr have way more rings than Wilt, and everything else is just statistics, right?

Worst of all is Kareem's revisionist role as Wilt Chamberlain's John the Baptist. The two never liked each other (and Kareem possibly still holds some enmity with the late Chamberlain, referring to him in this open letter by Wilt's long-hated nickname, "Stilt."), and Kareem isn't too far removed from penning the infamous, "To Wilt Chumperlame" open letter from his book My Turn. In it, Kareem offered this doozy:

"People will remember that I worked with my teammates and helped us win. You will be remembered as a whining crybaby and a quitter, stats and all."

Stats that, 21 years later, Kareem can't get enough of. Stats that, even with Jordan flashing six rings to Wilt's two, are enough in Kareem's eyes to hold Wilt in higher regard over MJ.

Stats that, as we've known for years, can't really be trusted.

Because not only were Chamberlain and Russell playing a different game back then, acting as modern era athletes (hell, both Wilt and Russell to a lesser extent would be modern-era dominant all-world athletes even today) in an ancient game, but they were playing a different game amongst a different game.

There were often 30 or 40 more possessions per game back then, as shots caromed off the rim (on average) 60 percent of the time, and teams endlessly raced up and down the court as a result. It was a cherry-picking time for stats even amongst the guys who didn't have Wilt and Russell's athletic gifts, modern timing, and smarts. But for those two? With that package? It's you against a 5-year-old on a Nerf hoop, and you're allowed to shoot from wherever you want.

But that's not really the point here, is it? Kareem, obviously, is arguing on his own behalf. A classic passive/aggressive move that sees him arguing with a stats-based stance for players who scored less, rebounded less, and blocked fewer shots than Kareem.

And of course Abdul-Jabbar isn't going to point out the difference in competition and pace in his argument, or point out how the game grew significantly in the 1970s. It's the reason he averaged nearly 10 points per game fewer in his athletic prime in the late 1970s (before Magic Johnson came by, mind you, to take a bunch of shots) then he did at the young age of 24 while in Milwaukee. He knows, and it's slipping away. He's probably been doing nothing but watching cable TV and listening to talk radio over the last week, he's not even being mentioned amongst the top-five players in NBA history on some occasions, and it's clearly set him off. So much so that he's embraced the "legacy" (his word) of a former unfriendly combatant in Chamberlain.

It's all a sad show. Not unlike the way the Bulls played over the last four games of their 2010-11 run. Though the spirit of competition was there as they lost four close contests, Pippen has kept on the offensive with his pointed criticisms of a team he sat courtside to watch for most of its 98-game season.

First, in an interview with ESPN's Melissa Isaacson (someone who has covered Pippen for over 20 years), he defended Derrick Rose's(notes) terrible shooting marks from the Eastern Conference finals, blaming Chicago's lack of options beyond Rose for his litany of missed bailout shots:

"They hound [Rose] off the pick with two guys who are 6-9, so he has to make a pass," Pippen told ESPNChicago.com. "And now you give it to a guy who can't make a play. Derrick passes to Joakim, Joakim passes it back and now the shot clock is against him.

"How can you be efficient when you don't even have to make the defense move or shift, because they're not rotating to Joakim, they're not doubling Boozer. You put a little traffic around Boozer, and he couldn't hold on to the ball anyway. I don't know if his toe was the cause of [some of his poor play], but it doesn't explain bad hands. He didn't perform."

Yikes. Pippen also went on to criticize Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau for not playing big man Kurt Thomas(notes) more in the series, based on a solid regular season and an impressive (if not offensively successful) second-half performance in Game 5 last Wednesday.

Trey Kerby has the breakdown:

Unfortunately for Bulls fans, Pippen's pretty much right about all of this. Joakim Noah(notes) failed to make plays in the Eastern Conference finals, Carlos Boozer(notes) was inconsequential when he wasn't outright bad, and Tom Thibodeau probably should have played Kurt Thomas more than he did.
 
And Shaq has announced his retirement from basketball.
 
Kelly Dwyer is, of course, entitled to his opinion. I strongly disagree with most of what he wrote.
 
Wilt accomplishments and stats are outwordly ... Could it be that Wilt was the best ever? Seriously .... ??? No one has even come close to his stats and no one will likely ever .. What about leading the league in Rebounds , Points and Assists? What about getting 55 reboundsin one game .. Most 50 points game ? Most points in a game ? Higher field goal percentage (.727!!!!) while leading the league in scoring in a year? I mean they had to rewrite the riules for this guy .. Yet his legacy is shadowed by his inability to beat Russel's Celtics .. he remain when one really looks at it calmly as the best this game has known.. There has been no one close ...
 
Wilt accomplishments and stats are outwordly ... Could it be that Wilt was the best ever? Seriously .... ??? No one has even come close to his stats and no one will likely ever .. What about leading the league in Rebounds , Points and Assists? What about getting 55 reboundsin one game .. Most 50 points game ? Most points in a game ? Higher field goal percentage (.727!!!!) while leading the league in scoring in a year? I mean they had to rewrite the riules for this guy .. Yet his legacy is shadowed by his inability to beat Russel's Celtics .. he remain when one really looks at it calmly as the best this game has known.. There has been no one close ...

Certainly that holds much weight in the discussion on the best who played the game. I agree with those points, those stats speak for themselves. Actually I'm one of those who just cannot say it out of my mouth that MJ is the greatest of best player ever. On what basis was MJ considered the greatest ever? Was there a vote? Among who? On stats? His would pale compared to Wilt. On rings? He's still far from Russell. On career points? That's where Jabbar comes in, as he just wrote to Pippen. So I really don't know how. Or on game winning shots in the playoffs? People would tell me that if he's that good, he's make sure his team was up by like 10 or more in playoff games wherein he will NOT need those game winning shots. But of course, MJ is MJ. He owns an NBA team now, lots of money there. His shoes still sell even after retirement. But to say that he's the greatest of best to EVER play the game, that's when at least 3 centers will have a little participation, imo.
 
And on the subject of Kareem's legacy, yes, he is a bit hurt at the lack of appreciation of his contributions. I think he said something like that after a statue was built for Bill Russell in Boston and that he has no statue. Since he was a vital member of the Laker Championship teams in the 80s, I couldn't heap even praise for him then during the Boston LA Wars but now, after 20 years, I begin to re-think his legacy and his performance. He has 6 championship rings, 1 with the Bucks and 5 with LA, that is 6, just like MJ, and one more than Kobe. Yet he is hardly mentioned among the greatest to play the game. I can feel for him in the letter to Pippen, though it appears to be self-serving but since nobody really did point those points out, he took time to say it. His thoughts are not that unfounded too, imo. As a teen, I looked at Kareem in awe, with those sideburns and a height that was virtually unseen in those days, as a member of the Bucks, each time I saw him play I was awestruck by the sight of him playing. As the all-time career points leader, he should have his proper place in the history of the game, after all, Naismith invented the game of putting the ball into the hoop as the main element of the game. Kareem is a great one.
 
IMO Wilt was the greatest ever. Consider this, he was the only player that was so dominant the league actually had to change several rules just to even out the playing field. What more is there to say?

Kareem would have been listed consistently however last impressions often last. Had he retired when he was supposed to I believe this would have happened. Sadly his business manager took him to the cleaners and he was forced to play out a season or two way past his prime. This is the image of Kareem that the sports writers of today remember. Shaq looks to be following this route.

MJ had something nobody else except perhaps Magic had in equal measure. Charisma. That and a corporate sponsor that revolutionized sports marketing with MJ as its focal point.

In the end I always find comparisons between athletes of different eras a waste of time. Advances in training and conditioning over the decades will have the athletes of today trounce the athletes of yesteryear. One look at World and Olympic records will bear this out. All we can go on is how dominant athletes were in their era. If that is the yardstick, as far as Basketball is concerned IMO Wilt rules.
 
IMO Wilt was the greatest ever. Consider this, he was the only player that was so dominant the league actually had to change several rules just to even out the playing field. What more is there to say?

Kareem would have been listed consistently however last impressions often last. Had he retired when he was supposed to I believe this would have happened. Sadly his business manager took him to the cleaners and he was forced to play out a season or two way past his prime. This is the image of Kareem that the sports writers of today remember. Shaq looks to be following this route.

MJ had something nobody else except perhaps Magic had in equal measure. Charisma. That and a corporate sponsor that revolutionized sports marketing with MJ as its focal point.

In the end I always find comparisons between athletes of different eras a waste of time. Advances in training and conditioning over the decades will have the athletes of today trounce the athletes of yesteryear. One look at World and Olympic records will bear this out. All we can go on is how dominant athletes were in their era. If that is the yardstick, as far as Basketball is concerned IMO Wilt rules.

Excellent points, Jack. Those are the qualifying explanations or barometers I have always wanted to hear. There is no doubt in my mind that MJ is a great player is will be right up there when the Top 10 or even Top 5 best to play the game is mentioned. Each of the greatest players will have excelled based on a criteria on why they are called 'great' or even 'best'.
 
I agree with Jack

The game has changed so much over each decade that it doesn't look anything like it did in Wilt's era or even Kareem's. Far too much speed and athleticism right now to truly compare today's players to those of prior years.

As for Kareem, reading some of the online news about him, it seems that he is far from a personable man and doesn't cozy up to people easily. It is for this reason it is said that Kareem has never been offered a coaching position let alone an assistant coaching position due to his lack of ability to interact with players and coaches.

Don't forget as well that Kareem is undergoing treatment for chronic leukemia
 
I do agree with Jack .. I don't believe the game has changed that much though.. Wilt would have dominated right now .. He was a freak of a nature (about 300 lbs and 7.1) and rememebr a track star something few if any 7'1" person seem to be good at .. Just look the time it takes the big giuys to run back to the other end of the court right today ... MJ would have dominated right now too ... Magic would have been Magic, the Big O would have been the big O ... I think the comparisons are valid as long as we are not too far in time ... The game has not dramatically changed .. It hasn't .. Now we see a new style of play because of the people coming pout of college .. it has really come back to a good point guard feeding the ball to its wing players .. Reason: There hasn't been many superlative back-to-the basket centers in years in College maybe Greg Olden but it is a brittle and likely would not be long in the NBA ...Aside from Dwight Howard can you name a superstar Center? So in Basketball the more things change .. the more they have (so far) remained the same ..
Wilt remains the greatest the Basketball has seen .. MJ one of the most dazzling .. Bill Russel the one who would stop most players with his cunning and intelligence and yes his athleticism, Magic the player who could make all around him better? Kobe , once in a lifetime player .. Lebron the same ...
These guys are to me the GOATs
Now the greatest player ... when stats come into play ? Wilt .. Would have done the same right now in a league with few superlative centers
 
Kelly Dwyer is, of course, entitled to his opinion. I strongly disagree with most of what he wrote.
Glad to see others seem to share my views.

Statistics over the course of a long career are evidence of greatness. Championships also are evidence of greatness. Neither one without the other is sufficient nor dispositive. George Gervin had great numbers, for example, as did Alex English, Patrick Ewing or even Adrian Dantley. Yet these players aren't even in the conversation when it comes to the greatest. Robert Horry has 6 rings, for example, but he also is not in the conversation.

The greatest players are like the greatest songs or albums - how's that for an analogy on an A/V forum site! - they are the greatest because they've withstood the test of time. To me, the greatest is one of the 3 centers, Kareem, Wilt or Bill. There are no right answers here. A strong and compelling argument is and has been made for each of these 3.

The more interesting discussion is to evaluate who is/was the greatest at each position. For instance, who are the 4th and 5th greatest centers of all time? I'm taking Shaq and Hakeem.
 

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