New Magico speaker - new M5?

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
3,372
285
83
Marina del Rey, CA
#61
I'd also add that there is huge fluff in a lot of these high prices - as people are offering huge discounts on gear. Raise prices and raise the discount seems like the new distributor model. Everybody thinks they "got a deal" and I'm sure people pass on normal discounts for high discounts and end up with crappier gear.
 

asiufy

Member Sponsor
Jul 8, 2011
3,037
171
63
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
#62
There's always been "value" plays, and it's no different now. A company can choose whether they want to offer good value at the low-end of the price spectrum, or if they want to offer value, but at a higher price point. Cars have their Hondas and their Acuras. Why can't the high-end audio have the same?
I'm always interested in hearing great products, at every price point, and then decide whether it presents good value or not.
 
Likes: Al M.

dcathro

New Member
Sep 16, 2016
26
4
3
Melbourne, Australia
#63
I believe I read an editorial by JA where the exposes the two basic models that companies come up with pricing, one based on real cost, and the 2nd based on marketing/how much they think they can sell the product for. In both scenarios, there's ZERO incentive or market push for the prices to go DOWN.
20 years ago, the "standard" model seemed to be retail price at roughly 5X or 6X the manufacturing cost, even for the hi end. Now it seems like 20X is the new norm.
 

asiufy

Member Sponsor
Jul 8, 2011
3,037
171
63
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
#64
20 years ago, the "standard" model seemed to be retail price at roughly 5X or 6X the manufacturing cost, even for the hi end. Now it seems like 20X is the new norm.
I don't know about that. What I do know is that some manufacturers don't even bother with manufacturing cost and a multiplier, they just go for whatever they think the market will bear. That was the gist of JA's editorial, IIRC.

I don't see how a bigger multiplier is a problem, in a different market. If fewer and fewer are buying your product, that is one (valid) choice. Charge more for each product, so you pay your suppliers, recover R&D costs, pay good salaries to your employees, pay taxes (duh) and perhaps have a few $$ left.

The challenge then is on to other manufacturers to pick up the slack, and work on getting less expensive products, that sound (almost?) as good, for less money. And fortunately, there's always a good number of those around.
 
May 30, 2010
14,817
345
83
Portugal
#65
Not really Peter, this is not a free market and efficient market needs to go together to be effective. This market is not efficient mainly because information with customers is too low (mainly because of the nature of the hobby) which is why you end up paying too high prices
IMHO we pay high prices because we want very specific high performance in different areas - and this is the essence of high-end, what you call the nature of the hobby. Such diversity has an high-cost, and seriously affects performance/price valuations.

Anyway what kind of information do you want to give to consumers? Our preferences list? Training courses? Brain washing sessions? :)
 
Jan 7, 2018
121
9
18
#66
My 1990 R105/3's were 92 lbs had 6 drivers in a 4 way design with a 3" thick solid front baffle, no wood screws holding drivers, a complex design that listed for $3900. with the optional kube. While I can't put that speakers sound quality next to modern sota design's I can put its build quality up against anything that would account for inflation. and while those speakers could probably be made in china today for less than they cost then the price would probably be 4 or 5 times what they were.
 

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
3,372
285
83
Marina del Rey, CA
#68
I'd also add that there is huge fluff in a lot of these high prices - as people are offering huge discounts on gear. Raise prices and raise the discount seems like the new distributor model. Everybody thinks they "got a deal" and I'm sure people pass on normal discounts for high discounts and end up with crappier gear.
I just discovered a very good example - $110k Zellatons selling used for $18k, only a few years old. 85% loss of "value" is something.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2010
6,135
125
63
La Jolla, Calif USA
#69
I just discovered a very good example - $110k Zellatons selling used for $18k, only a few years old. 85% loss of "value" is something.
Keith, I think those particular Zellatons are the older model, hence the price.Although the reduction in value due this aspect over the suggested list price is still very considerable. Unfortunately, I think when one buys a speaker like that, which doesn’t have a lot of traction here, the used price drop is to be expected.
 
Jan 16, 2013
323
24
18
NYC
#70
I think this is a great excuse for a weekend holiday trip to the east coast with the wife :).
You are always welcome for a listening visit!
 
Likes: bonzo75

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
10,288
739
113
London
#71

sbo6

Member
May 19, 2014
751
24
18
Round Rock, TX
#72
With respect to dynamic drivers, one ideally wants true pistonic behavior in a very wide frequency range for accurate reproduction. That can only be achieved with "hard" drivers, otherwise they exhibit break-up modes where you don't want them. A hard driver is a very good thing, and beryllium + diamond dust gives pistonic behavior out to the high kHz - a great thing.

PS: Metal domes are not as pistonic either
Can I ask what data points(s) do you have to substantiate that metal domes are not as pistonic as beryllium and / or diamond? Ever hear Vivid Giyas?
 
Jan 31, 2014
404
7
18
Italy
#73
Can I ask what data points(s) do you have to substantiate that metal domes are not as pistonic as beryllium and / or diamond? Ever hear Vivid Giyas?
Ever heard of Young modulus*?
Aluminum is 69 (GPa), and Beryllium is 287 (!!). So Be is ~4 times stiffer than aluminum.For audio, it means that Be breakup point (that is the point where it is no longer pistonic) will be much higher than aluminum. Sprinkle some Dimond dust on it (1220 GPa), and you basically get a very pistonic, light, tweeter dome. In audio, it does not get much better than that (pure Diamond cones are even more pistonic, but are crazy expensive and have their own set limitations).

*Mechanical property that measures the stiffness of a solid material.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
5,411
107
63
Boston, MA
#74
Yeah that was an amateur question
 

sbo6

Member
May 19, 2014
751
24
18
Round Rock, TX
#75
I do know of stiffness differences between different materials however you completely omitted vendor implementations which are all different (cone thickness, shape, size, etc). Plus vendors such as Vivid employ other methods to push up breakup modes. And by data I meant actual measured data from speakers / drivers showing such. An amateur answer I guess, ack...
 
May 30, 2010
14,817
345
83
Portugal
#76
Ever heard of Young modulus*?
Aluminum is 69 (GPa), and Beryllium is 287 (!!). So Be is ~4 times stiffer than aluminum.For audio, it means that Be breakup point (that is the point where it is no longer pistonic) will be much higher than aluminum. Sprinkle some Dimond dust on it (1220 GPa), and you basically get a very pistonic, light, tweeter dome. In audio, it does not get much better than that (pure Diamond cones are even more pistonic, but are crazy expensive and have their own set limitations).

*Mechanical property that measures the stiffness of a solid material.
Oversimplification. The subject is too complex to be addressed with such light approach. Speakers are not static entities. Anyway no one has correlated listener preference with breakup points above 50 kHz. :)
 
Likes: sbo6

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
5,411
107
63
Boston, MA
#78
I do know of stiffness differences between different materials however you completely omitted vendor implementations which are all different (cone thickness, shape, size, etc). Plus vendors such as Vivid employ other methods to push up breakup modes. And by data I meant actual measured data from speakers / drivers showing such. An amateur answer I guess, ack...
You are trying to obfuscate and divert, it looks like. Let it go, I am sure you know better than this.
 

sbo6

Member
May 19, 2014
751
24
18
Round Rock, TX
#79
I guess microstrip and I are in the same camp in your myopic - viewing eyes. You're delusional and a simplifier. Looks like you don't know better..
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. A place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss existing and new audio products, music servers, music streamers and computer audio, digital to audio convertors (DACS), turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel to reel, speakers, headphones, tube amplifiers and solid state amplification. Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing