Could you expand on this please?
Precisely what sort(s) of bottleneck are we talking about here? Digital bottlenecks or noise bottlenecks? ... or am I missing a further class of bottleneck?
Thanks
New Network Acoustics eno2 system
- Thread starter keithc
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Precisely what sort(s) of bottleneck are we talking about here? Digital bottlenecks or noise bottlenecks? ... or am I missing a further class of bottleneck?
Thanks
I guess the same issues the industry faced when started replacing computers for streaming, servers, NAS, network filters, LAN cables or common switches with devices specifically designed for audio purposes. I replaced a MacMini, a cheap switch, an amazon Ethernet cable along my journey, and the improvement in sound quality was easy audible. I have no technical knowledge at all but my simple deduction is that the common ISP routers deserve the same attention.
They sport LED, chips and parts I suppose pretty noisy for musical purposes, are made by cheap materials and internal wires that are not intended to provide the performance hoped by audiophiles.
Why audio industry didn’t focused yet on common routers, being them a (significant?) part of the path?
Am I wrong?
Happy to learn more about that from you Nigel, you certainly know the argument very well, unlike a hobbist like me. If my assumptions are silly, please be indulgent with me, I’m a journalist who loves audio, without any technical skill.
Thanks for your opinion.
They sport LED, chips and parts I suppose pretty noisy for musical purposes, are made by cheap materials and internal wires that are not intended to provide the performance hoped by audiophiles.
Why audio industry didn’t focused yet on common routers, being them a (significant?) part of the path?
Am I wrong?
Happy to learn more about that from you Nigel, you certainly know the argument very well, unlike a hobbist like me. If my assumptions are silly, please be indulgent with me, I’m a journalist who loves audio, without any technical skill.
Thanks for your opinion.
That's a great post, @luca.pelliccioli. And it echoes my own experiences. I guess my point is that most of the changes you and I have experienced personally as we've incrementally improved our networked audio have related to noise reduction rather than to the digital signal itself, and I'm not sure I'd call noise reduction a bottleneck.
To me "bottleneck" implies some sort of speed/capacity limitation. I know words are only words but even the highest resolution digital files we enjoy hardly stress the capacity of even a modest network.
When it comes to noise, as you know, I am happy to assert that this is an area in which it makes more sense to invest in treating the symptoms rather than the cause (contrary to most of my own professional life!). The place we can most effectively impact noise is by minimising it just before our streamer rather than at the ISP router. Yes, there's an argument that all noise is bad and therefore every measure we can take counts; but the further from the streamer we get, the more opportunity the intervening cables and devices have to pick up noise and let it reach the DAC.
If an audiophile has a budget of £x/$x/€x (other currencies are available: please check local stockist for details!) then they are more likely to get excellent value for money by spending it at the streamer/pre-streamer end than by doing so at the router/post-router end.
Have a great evening, Luca.
To me "bottleneck" implies some sort of speed/capacity limitation. I know words are only words but even the highest resolution digital files we enjoy hardly stress the capacity of even a modest network.
When it comes to noise, as you know, I am happy to assert that this is an area in which it makes more sense to invest in treating the symptoms rather than the cause (contrary to most of my own professional life!). The place we can most effectively impact noise is by minimising it just before our streamer rather than at the ISP router. Yes, there's an argument that all noise is bad and therefore every measure we can take counts; but the further from the streamer we get, the more opportunity the intervening cables and devices have to pick up noise and let it reach the DAC.
If an audiophile has a budget of £x/$x/€x (other currencies are available: please check local stockist for details!) then they are more likely to get excellent value for money by spending it at the streamer/pre-streamer end than by doing so at the router/post-router end.
Have a great evening, Luca.
It makes sense, thanks for your clarification.
It seems we need to study (as industry) more deeply the argument. Maybe as much effort as done with electrical systems (lines, conditioners, sockets, power cords) will be needed in the very next future.
Maybe my set up is different, because I have a dedicated internet line and a dedicated router 1.5 mt far from my rack, but I understand your point.
More food for thought.
It seems we need to study (as industry) more deeply the argument. Maybe as much effort as done with electrical systems (lines, conditioners, sockets, power cords) will be needed in the very next future.
Maybe my set up is different, because I have a dedicated internet line and a dedicated router 1.5 mt far from my rack, but I understand your point.
More food for thought.
this is because the Router is essentially a mini computer with a simplified operating system. those supplied by ISPs in all cases are very cheap products and have many active options in their management software that degrade the quality of audio performance. as if a PC used by streamers did a thousand other things, with a thousand other active services! the small and cheap microprocessor or SoC that is used in routers and its noisy fan are too often squeezed to the maximum, this creates digital noise, a CPU that works little is more silent and creates less digital noise, then I don't even want to think (and they do) about the software flaws and the ports that remain open in routers supplied by ISPs, there is also a strong IT security problem, perhaps this will not impact audio performance.
the voltage regulators that are on board switches or routers are cheap and should be replaced with much higher quality devices! for example this is done by Jcat with its XACT! I'm asking if it's possible to use it as a router, Marcin from jcat tells me that it is possible! this is one of the possible but few alternatives that the digital audio industry is providing us now! in the future we will have many audiophile Routers, as now there are audiophile Switches! if it's valid for the Switch it's also valid for the Router!
It's great to see that many picked up my post, along with the "bottleneck" wording. This depending on its interpretation might be missleading. I was more referring to it as the "major weak link". Meaning in a streaming, digital setup there has to be an internet connection thus the ISP modem is an an essential part. And by that a doorway for a lot of noise into your system. Sure there can be taken countermeasures afterwards, but as soon there is a substantial noise infiltrated in your system it makes every component and the whole system weaker and never eliminates all of it.
Thus addressing this will yield great benefits. It's tricky though as every ISP has it's own requirements on their infrastructure hardwire wise, though I think the unique demands for a router power supply and it's implications are very interesting.
Thus addressing this will yield great benefits. It's tricky though as every ISP has it's own requirements on their infrastructure hardwire wise, though I think the unique demands for a router power supply and it's implications are very interesting.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
On the same subject kind of... https://www.alpha-audio.net/background/hard-evidence-a-network-affects-playback-quality/
Cool, thanks for explaining, @jasond. Performance bottleneck then, in the audio performance = sound quality sense. I'm good with that!
Audiophile routers are the next thing to investigate properly I think.
Here are some examples that exists on the market.
https://fidelizer-audio.com/airstream-wireless-router/ (interesting with Wifi)
taikoaudio.com
www.kempelektroniksshop.nl
www.adark.co
Many of them very expensive, modified normal routers. All to reduce noise. But isnt a good switch , or switches in serie with good filters, or optical enough? Propably not
I use LPS on my incoming ISP, router (ASUS) and switches. ( Have also an incoming switch from NigelB)
Here are some examples that exists on the market.
https://fidelizer-audio.com/airstream-wireless-router/ (interesting with Wifi)
Taiko Audio Extreme Router – Taiko Audio
taikoaudio.com
Synergistic Research | Network Router UEF | Build-in Lin. Power Supply
Demo version available. World's first High End audio/video router UEF Technology and EM Cell incorporated Cost-no-object construction Two linear power supplies incorporated (no cheap SMPS wall adapters which need to be upgraded!) 5 in- and output ports 1.5 m Foundation 12 AWG Power Cable...
www.kempelektroniksshop.nl
Netgear Nightawk XR1000 Audiophile Router x AfterDark. Black Modernize Linear Power Supply - High Current Edition
Netgear Nightawk XR1000 Audiophile Router x AfterDark. Black Modernize Linear Power Supply - High Current Edition AfterDark. would like to introduce the latest solution for eliminate the network noise from the router. With today's latest technology from Netgear. This seems provide a good...
www.adark.co
Many of them very expensive, modified normal routers. All to reduce noise. But isnt a good switch , or switches in serie with good filters, or optical enough? Propably not
I use LPS on my incoming ISP, router (ASUS) and switches. ( Have also an incoming switch from NigelB)
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Actually it is. If you have the right switches and filters.Audiophile routers are the next thing to investigate properly I think.
Here are some examples that exists on the market.
https://fidelizer-audio.com/airstream-wireless-router/ (interesting with Wifi)
Taiko Audio Extreme Router – Taiko Audio
Synergistic Research | Network Router UEF | Build-in Lin. Power Supply
Demo version available. World's first High End audio/video router UEF Technology and EM Cell incorporated Cost-no-object construction Two linear power supplies incorporated (no cheap SMPS wall adapters which need to be upgraded!) 5 in- and output ports 1.5 m Foundation 12 AWG Power Cable...Netgear Nightawk XR1000 Audiophile Router x AfterDark. Black Modernize Linear Power Supply - High Current Edition
Netgear Nightawk XR1000 Audiophile Router x AfterDark. Black Modernize Linear Power Supply - High Current Edition AfterDark. would like to introduce the latest solution for eliminate the network noise from the router. With today's latest technology from Netgear. This seems provide a good...
Many of them very expensive, modified normal routers. All to reduce noise. But isnt a good switch , or switches in serie with good filters, or optical enough? Propably not
I use LPS on my incoming ISP, router (ASUS) and switches. ( Have also an incoming switch from NigelB)
So who has already experience with an ENO2 or Muon Pro filter in a setup or could listen in a comparison?
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Anyone have any experience with this Rick Shultz designs?
He is known for cutting edge devices and is substantially less that the NA products.
www.audiogon.com
He is known for cutting edge devices and is substantially less that the NA products.
Rick Schultz Audio Shockwave Ethernet Device For Sale | Audiogon
Rick Schultz Audio Shockwave Ethernet Device Digital for sale. The all new Shockwave from Rick Schultz Audio or RSA. Utilizing patented magnetic c...
www.audiogon.com
I haven't but I'd like to know what the heck this means: "The technology of magnetic conduction brings dramatic change by increasing the speed of the actual digital signal reducing noise."Anyone have any experience with this Rick Shultz designs?
He is known for cutting edge devices and is substantially less that the NA products.
Rick Schultz Audio Shockwave Ethernet Device For Sale | Audiogon
Rick Schultz Audio Shockwave Ethernet Device Digital for sale. The all new Shockwave from Rick Schultz Audio or RSA. Utilizing patented magnetic c...
What does increasing speed mean? How does the device do this? How does "magnetic conduction" specifically do this? What is the suggested relationship between increasing speed and reducing noise?
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Why I asked the question and your response is questionable, sometimes silence is the best salesmen.
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Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Sure, all good.Thanks coach; top tip, right there!
Apols, I took your post at face value.
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Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Sent a message to RS see what they say.Thanks coach; top tip, right there!
Apols, I took your post at face value.
Oh I am cutting you from the team son
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