New to the forum: high end music server with Roon Core and 3 x dedicated linear power supplies

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
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Reno, NV
#21
A 30 cent change in pitch, especially down (there is a reason this is called "flat", as opposed to "sharp"), disqualifies this from serious consideration for music lovers, IMHO. For some listeners, with only instrumental music, it might be only occasionally objectionable, but vocals will be dramatically altered.

As an aside, this is a good illustration (for me) of the lack of musical sensibilities in many or most audiophiles.
 

FredericV

Industry Expert
Jun 9, 2020
9
3
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#22
A 30 cent change in pitch, especially down (there is a reason this is called "flat", as opposed to "sharp"), disqualifies this from serious consideration for music lovers, IMHO. For some listeners, with only instrumental music, it might be only occasionally objectionable, but vocals will be dramatically altered.

As an aside, this is a good illustration (for me) of the lack of musical sensibilities in many or most audiophiles.
Nobody is forcing you to use this mode, in bitperfect or upsample-only mode, the machine still is very good without the rate change, and also won best of show in Munich & X-FI without 432 Hz.

We did our own research with 60 test candidates long before we even created the 432 EVO brand, and 58 out of 60 persons rated the 432 Hz versions better than the bitperfect originals. As this clearly brings joy to many, we wanted to include this tech in our own product. We also have real musicians as customer, and they confirm the improvement. We did a project with a Jazz band where we arranged the conversion of their hi-res debut album using the 432 Hz plugin as normally live in realtime inside the EVO. They also confirmed the 432 Hz.

But 432 Hz is not for everyone, as statistics show, 5 to 10% still prefers 440 Hz.

One of our key dealers is using the machine in bitperfect mode, and has compared it with much more expensive sources and even tried several competitors, and is still using the 432 EVO MASTER on a full Aries Cerat system.
 
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rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,501
70
485
Reno, NV
#23
I understand the reasoning, and do appreciate that this is not a "mandatory" feature. Preferred reference pitch has changed over the centuries, and it is interesting to follow the progression and philosophy behind those changes; certainly nothing mandates that A=440 will remain the reference pitch into the future. The specific instruments and manufacturing quality of musical instruments in general is largely responsible for the progression of change and current (for almost a century) settling on A=440. But with vocals, changing pitch "mechanically" (or electronically) seems to alter the individual's vocal characteristics, in a different way than having the vocalist actually sing at that altered pitch. If you know someone who is a gifted singer, this is an easy test to perform yourself, using a digital recorder and a DAW to change pitch (with or without changing tempo, although doing this manipulation without changing tempo is not as sonically transparent) and comparing this to the singer originally singing at a different reference pitch. What also becomes apparent is that changing pitch up ("sharp") is not as immediately noticeable or objectionable as changing pitch down, which is part of the reason that reference pitch has (in general) crept up over the years, and why some orchestras today tune slightly above A=440.
 

sbo6

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2014
1,049
139
285
Round Rock, TX
#24
Essentially 432Hz detunes everything, not just vocals so everything will sound slightly lower in pitch and probably a bit more "richer" and "warmer" sounding. My guess is - it's enough to sound pleasing to some without enough detuning to be noticeably slower and pitch reduced. Reminds me a bit of some speaker mfrs. that embellish some low / mid frequencies to please some customers. However, the detuning feature being defeatable is IMO important. I'm not sure as an amateur musician if I'd like it but who knows.
 

sbo6

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2014
1,049
139
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Round Rock, TX
#25
The same review from Hifi Choice also concluded the 432 EVO AEON was the best sounding USB source the reviewer had tested:



432 Hz depends from person to person. According to a study from Maria Renold, 90% prefers 432 Hz over the 440 Hz original. So there's a much smaller percentage which prefers the original.

If you are a trained musician, have absolute hearing, or know your source material very well, you may notice the rate change, and you may need some time to adapt to 432 Hz. 432 EVO does not use the flawed pitch shift method (which changes the pitch, but keeps the duration of the track identical). We use a custom rate change algorithm which we programmed in house (having a 20 year background in Linux for large enterprises, helps a lot), which combines 432 Hz and upsampling in one very efficient step, and does also apply the correct speed correction.

We leave it up to the listener to decide if they go for bitperfect, upsample-only mode, or 432 Hz mode. In our own demo's and on hifi shows, we always leave 432 Hz active. But the bitperfect mode has been compared to very expensive redbook CD transports, and it can easily match them, and even surpass them. This was tested by our resellers by ripping a CD via the bitperfect Teac ripfacility inside the EVO, and comparing the CD via the CD transport. We used a very expensive CEC for this purpose.

Here's a demo from Munich 2019, with 432 Hz active, at the Hifi Deluxe show:

Curious - Are the footers Streacom CPU heat sink hold - down assemblies?
 

FredericV

Industry Expert
Jun 9, 2020
9
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45
#26
Essentially 432Hz detunes everything, not just vocals so everything will sound slightly lower in pitch and probably a bit more "richer" and "warmer" sounding. My guess is - it's enough to sound pleasing to some without enough detuning to be noticeably slower and pitch reduced. Reminds me a bit of some speaker mfrs. that embellish some low / mid frequencies to please some customers. However, the detuning feature being defeatable is IMO important. I'm not sure as an amateur musician if I'd like it but who knows.
That's a strange way of putting it. We don't "detune" but retune A=440 Hz based music into A=432 Hz. Our method has been confirmed by actual musicians, and even used on the debut album from Jazz Profilactika’s debut album Tick Tock. The method was confirmed & authenticated by all band members, as the better sounding version:

https://432evo.be/index.php/what-is-432hz-tuning/


“So, why did we choose a lower pitch? Well, the shortest and simplest answer to that question is it sounds better to our ears. We have compared the 440Hz and 432Hz versions by ear on various sound systems, from PA to high-end Hi-Fi (using Martin Logan electrostatic speakers and others like KEF and PSB). The 432 Hz exports sounded and felt more cored in the low-end, warmer in the mid-range and more transparent and spacious in the high-range relative to the 440Hz exports.

The 432 Hz method applied in the 432 EVO servers is way better than anything you'll find in plugins in software such as ProTools, and does not use the flawed pitch shift method.

432 EVO owners are completely free to use or not use this feature.

The 432 EVO also includes an advanced intermediate phase upsampler with best in class features for both the time AND frequency domain:

- phase correct within audible range
- almost no pre-ringing before transients, so no audible time domain smearing
- mainly post-ringing, and no fake aliased content

These recipes can be combined with and without the 432 Hz effect. Users can actually chose between:

1. bitperfect
2. upsamping with 432 Hz (and chose from 10 different upsampling recipes including several flavors of intermediate phase)
2. upsamping without any rate change (and chose from 10 different upsampling recipes including several flavors of intermediate phase)

The upsampling recipes are predefined, so you don't need to know any specifics about how upsampling works. So no knowledge required about how filters work. But we provide a tutorial on our site with the technical details and measurements, how these work, for those who want to know a lot more.
 

Kingrex

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2019
246
132
50
#27
When I played guitar, it was always cool to pitch down and rip blues tunes. Gave a fat meaty sound
 
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sbo6

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2014
1,049
139
285
Round Rock, TX
#28
That's a strange way of putting it. We don't "detune" but retune A=440 Hz based music into A=432 Hz. Our method has been confirmed by actual musicians, and even used on the debut album from Jazz Profilactika’s debut album Tick Tock. The method was confirmed & authenticated by all band members, as the better sounding version:

https://432evo.be/index.php/what-is-432hz-tuning/

Calling it detuning is not strange, in fact it's completely accurate - Google it. The difference is - you are detuning by less than half steps most commonly employed in music. I find it interesting that the musicians above employed this process and never mentioned the word detuning hence it being new to you.
 

sbo6

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2014
1,049
139
285
Round Rock, TX
#29
Detune method
 

FredericV

Industry Expert
Jun 9, 2020
9
3
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#30
Ok, point taken regarding detuning. I know it's used in musician circles, but it's not often used in audiophile speak.
Guess de-clocking your low-end motherboard USB output with some external gadget sounds less nice than re-clocking.

Hence we use the term "re-tuning" instead of "de-tuning" which is what audiophiles understand better. A fraction of audiophiles are also musicians.

BTW we don't reclock in our AEON & MASTER. We don't use the motherboard's USB header pins, hook it to some one port HUB with a clock stuck to it and then claim it's a statement. Instead HIGH-END, AEON & MASTER models have a real USB card which is controlled by the PCI express bus, which allows greater tuning than just a HUB. Having a real card allows much greater realtime tuning control in Linux. Based or our listening tests, we believe sound quality is also software defined. Just reboot the same userspace with a different Linux kernel and it can sound boring, or more interesting, and we are not even talking about kernel parameter tuning which we also do. It's interesting how software can drastically change the sound of hardware, where the hardware is driving a bitperfect async USB DAC.

But going back to 432 Hz: our motivation for offering 432 Hz, aka 440 Hz (de|re)tuning to 432 Hz:

1. Our own test with 60 persons: 58/60 preferred the 432 Hz, and this was long before the 432 EVO
2. Maria Renold's study where she came to a similar percentage (around 90% who prefers it): http://v1.432evo.be/documents/pdf/study.pdf
3. And the claimed effects we knew from the 432 Hz "scene", which were later confirmed in this pilot study:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31031095/

The study did find physiological effects in the positive sense, after listening to 432 Hz.

Nobody is forcing anyone to benefit from these effects, those who want the slightly more harsh version (to our ears), can still use bitperfect mode, or upsample only mode. But a fraction hears differently, and hence, around 5 to 10% of listenters statistically prefers the 440 Hz original, which is why we leave bitperfect & upsample-only modes also as options in the settings. Some actually experience this more harsh sound as more fresh.

Knowing this statistical distribution, we wanted to offer modes which can please any audiophile, and all these options are available to play with inside the web based control panel of the server.
 

Patvanco

New Member
Jun 14, 2020
5
0
1
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#31
Dear,

stumbled by coincidence onto this thread.
I own both the Evo Aeon (part of a vintage system) and the Evo Master (part of a high end active system) and they both sound fooking amazing, as Liam Gallagher would say. Pardon my French.

Don’t ask me about technical specifics, that‘s NOT what i am into. Just listening.
Did i try out other brands? Yes, i did.
Which ones? Let’s keep it civilized and not elaborate about their shortcomings.

In short, the Evo’s are a real tour de force.
You could argue that their industrial look is not to your taste.
But hey, am i prepared to pay another couple of thousand euro’s on fancy casings? No.
 

sbo6

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2014
1,049
139
285
Round Rock, TX
#32
I think you can be civilized and still share your comparisons; all forums do so as long as it doesn't get without making it nasty and negative. I'd certainly be interested in what compares you've made.
 
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Marcin_gps

VIP Donor/Industry Expert
Jun 24, 2015
110
49
215
jcat.eu
#33
I have a question: what happens if a recording is already in 432Hz? e.g. Leszek Mozdzer & Holland Baroque - Earth Particles
 

FredericV

Industry Expert
Jun 9, 2020
9
3
3
45
#35
Dear,

stumbled by coincidence onto this thread.
I own both the Evo Aeon (part of a vintage system) and the Evo Master (part of a high end active system) and they both sound fooking amazing, as Liam Gallagher would say. Pardon my French.
Thanks for your feedback!

Can you elaborate a little bit on your systems, and how you are using our servers?
 

Patvanco

New Member
Jun 14, 2020
5
0
1
61
#36
I think you can be civilized and still share your comparisons; all forums do so as long as it doesn't get without making it nasty and negative. I'd certainly be interested in what compares you've made.
Hi and good afternoon,

i am definitely not cut out for these forums, because far too busy steering my job tasks through Corona.

But, i compared:

* my Aeon with both the Mytek Brooklyn Bridge and the new Gold Note DS 10. The Aeon was making music with my old Auralic Vega Dac. Honestly? The 2 Dac streamers didn’t even come close.

* my Evo Master to the expensive Antipodes combi. Difference in sound quality was not as clear as the ones with the Aeon. But .... the Evo gives me the advantage of on the fly switching in between 432 and 440. And even though i don’t understand the scientific explanation mr. Vandepoel once gave me regarding the 432-setting, i do agree with him that the 432-setting is making digital sound magical. Less fatiguing to me, that’s for sure.

Listening to Low by Bowie as we speak. Waw!

Have a great weekend, Patrick
 

matthias

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2019
338
103
48
Germany
#37
But, i compared:
* my Aeon with both the Mytek Brooklyn Bridge and the new Gold Note DS 10. The Aeon was making music with my old Auralic Vega Dac. Honestly? The 2 Dac streamers didn’t even come close.
This is a apples to oranges comparison:

You compare Server + DAC vs. two endpoints with DAC.

Matt
 

Patvanco

New Member
Jun 14, 2020
5
0
1
61
#38
Thanks for your feedback!

Can you elaborate a little bit on your systems, and how you are using our servers?
Hi,

i listen to 2 systems: to one in my office/mezzanine area and another one in a dedicated listening room.

Office/Mezzanine-area:

Icon Audio integrated 40 Mk 3 + Auralic Vega + EVO Aeon + Philips 882 transport with Tentlabs Clock + Tannoy Dual Concentric Monitor Gold 15” with optimalized cross overs by Lefson France.


Listening Room

Evo Master + Spectral sdr-3000 transport, each of them going straight into the active Kii Three Audio Speakers. Sometimes, when i want some valve romanticism, i run both sources through the Lampizator Golden Gate mk 2 dac, which doubles as a pre amp.

Have a great weekend, Patrick
 

Patvanco

New Member
Jun 14, 2020
5
0
1
61
#39
This is a apples to oranges comparison:

You compare Server + DAC vs. two endpoints with DAC.

Matt
I know, but that doesn’t change the fact that the combi Aeon/ancient Auralic sounds A LOT better than the 2 hypermodern endpoints. Well, to my ears that is.
I tested both to go the Kallax-Fi way, introduced by John Darko.
But more cables, more power supplies, more space .... are still proving to be well worth the effort. Resulting into glorious music!
 

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