NHB-458 monoblock power amplifier
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Wise words very often forgot. We do not need a Saturn V to launch artificial satellites ...
I listened to it playing a little too loud for my taste with speakers having 89 dB/W and 2.4 ohm low peaks and it sounded great. It was easily the best "Crime of the Century" I have ever listened to.
Yes, I do not like its price ...
i know the guy with the Q7-458 combo is pretty damn happy....he's the same guy who had the Q5-458 combo.
i think any amp that get's pretty much 'best i have heard' from a wide variety of people is going to attract naysayers from fanboys of other uber-amps. comes with the territory. and if there is any less-than-perfect numbers it will be; 'ah ha!'.
"forget about listening; it can't be that good".....or...."a big THUD".
in the interests of full disclosure i'm a 458 fanboy myself, and i put my money where my mouth is and bought a pair.
THUD
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Just Kidding Mike and I'm glad you're a happy fanboy
I heard Wizard is bringing over his FMA for a shoot out, yeah lets get to the bottom of this 
Very well put, Mike.
At least darTZeel is out there, with gear being reviewed by magazines. It's not hiding under the "exclusivity" and "you can't buy this" aura that some other manufacturers hide behind...
Yes, the measurements suck. All of them. The integrated, the preamp, the stereo amp, and now the 458. Yet they are the best in each of their respective class, that I have heard.
That goes hand in hand with the fact that one of JA's best measured amplifiers (a Halcro) is an absolute piece of unlistenable sh*t. The same Michael Fremer that thinks the 458 is the best amp ever reviewed the uber expensive Soulution, and he found it severely lacking, while JA found it to be one of the best measuring amps ever.
So what does that tell you? Absolutely nothing
Or at least, that you must go out there and listen to stuff, not base yourself on some random specs and preconceived notions of how gear should work. My 108 stereo amp can't drive low impedances. Yet it kicks the sh*t out of big Krells and MBLs on 89dB Dynaudios and 88dB Sonus fabers. And in another thread, microstrip said this same amp was the best he heard with the monstruous Aidas. If you just read its specs and measurements, you'd never even try such a puny little amp. But he went ahead and did it, and found out it's great.
So, I'm with Mike L here, I just wish I had the means to upgrade to the 458s.
alexandre
Specs dont say what you will like , what they do is not lie, so one will still have to listen, as Wizard and others have done and form their opinion, hi-fi is no indy 500 , there is no checkered flag..no clear winner ..
Aside, i still stand behind the test results reviewed and IMO, it's not a good companion for sub 4 ohm operation unless you're using very sensitive speakers and really don't need or use more than 50 watts/ch ...
Congrats to all as we enjoy the music ...
Regards,
Aside, i still stand behind the test results reviewed and IMO, it's not a good companion for sub 4 ohm operation unless you're using very sensitive speakers and really don't need or use more than 50 watts/ch ...
Congrats to all as we enjoy the music ...
Regards,
The lowest distortion figures does not make an amplifier great. I prefer manufacturers who focus on the sound of the amp, not how it measures. Dart and Pass are good examples and I'm sure there are many others. Nelson Pass sums it up best for me....
When asked why Class A ?
When asked why Class A ?
Very well put, Mike.
At least darTZeel is out there, with gear being reviewed by magazines. It's not hiding under the "exclusivity" and "you can't buy this" aura that some other manufacturers hide behind...
Yes, the measurements suck. All of them. The integrated, the preamp, the stereo amp, and now the 458. Yet they are the best in each of their respective class, that I have heard.
That goes hand in hand with the fact that one of JA's best measured amplifiers (a Halcro) is an absolute piece of unlistenable sh*t. The same Michael Fremer that thinks the 458 is the best amp ever reviewed the uber expensive Soulution, and he found it severely lacking, while JA found it to be one of the best measuring amps ever.
So what does that tell you? Absolutely nothing
My 108 stereo amp can't drive low impedances. Yet it kicks the sh*t out of big Krells and MBLs on 89dB Dynaudios and 88dB Sonus fabers. And in another thread, microstrip said this same amp was the best he heard with the monstruous Aidas. If you just read its specs and measurements, you'd never even try such a puny little amp. But he went ahead and did it, and found out it's great.
So, I'm with Mike L here, I just wish I had the means to upgrade to the 458s.
alexandre
If it measures good and sounds good it is good; if it measures bad and sounds good, then you're measuring the wrong thing.
1000W in 2ohms is not good? Really?
Specs don't HAVE TO "say" what I like, because I learnt to ignore them, and pay attention to how equipment sound. If I had based myself and my purchases on reviews, I would've ended up paying for that horrible Halcro and would've been kicking myself for doing it.
Fortunately I could have a listen before deciding, and it took me like 5 minutes to realise it was no good. Oh, and I do have use for more than 50W, as my room is moderately big (6,5m x 7,5m). The 108 is kinda pushing it with my Dynaudios, and on some bits of orchestral music, the eyes blink a little bit. So yeah, I need the 458s
To close this one off, here's a quote...
"If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion" Ivor Tiefenbrun, Chairman Linn Audio
Specs don't HAVE TO "say" what I like, because I learnt to ignore them, and pay attention to how equipment sound. If I had based myself and my purchases on reviews, I would've ended up paying for that horrible Halcro and would've been kicking myself for doing it.
Fortunately I could have a listen before deciding, and it took me like 5 minutes to realise it was no good. Oh, and I do have use for more than 50W, as my room is moderately big (6,5m x 7,5m). The 108 is kinda pushing it with my Dynaudios, and on some bits of orchestral music, the eyes blink a little bit. So yeah, I need the 458s
To close this one off, here's a quote...
"If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion" Ivor Tiefenbrun, Chairman Linn Audio
References please,
The test on that particular amp on stereophile web site , did not show 1000 into 2 ohms and I'm sure no one is advocating purchasing by specs alone , quite the opposite, nor can anyone predict if you or anyone else would like any particular product, well not without knowing your personal audio preferences.
This differs from the FMA dogma, which was all subjective, sour grapes talk , here we have both objective and subjective opinions floated and discussed.
Regards,
The test on that particular amp on stereophile web site , did not show 1000 into 2 ohms and I'm sure no one is advocating purchasing by specs alone , quite the opposite, nor can anyone predict if you or anyone else would like any particular product, well not without knowing your personal audio preferences.
This differs from the FMA dogma, which was all subjective, sour grapes talk , here we have both objective and subjective opinions floated and discussed.
Regards,
That is the most naïve statement I have ever read. If you are a fan of measurements (and you claim you are), surely you have seen tons of gear that did not meet their stated specifications over the years. Maybe you meant measurements taken by a competent engineer/technician with great calibrated test gear don’t lie.
Specs lie all the time whether it’s inadvertently or advertently. Specifications need to be thought of as design goals and measurements as to how close those design goals were met.
Here's a quote from the darTZeel 108 manual:
Some amplifiers available on the market claim ex-tremely low THD figures, at the very limit of instrumentation measurement, assuming this resultnecessarily leads to outstanding sound purity. Wetake this with some caution, since it recalls for usthe 70-80' Japanese philosophy, by which "per-formance" implies "quality". We have to be fair byacknowledging that such designs can be liked andeven loved by audiophiles. The world is big enoughfor multi musical tastes.
The idea is very nice indeed, and we do admiresuch a philosophical approach, even if it is notours: the problem is that those designs are highlysophisticated – too much for our ears – involvinglots of added transistors, op amps, and higher thanreasonable NFB, leading finally to altered soundstructure.
These electronics can be considered as very pureand detailed for the first listening hours or days,but once noticed, their sonic signature becomesharder and harder to bear.
This sort of feels right to me...
alexandre
Some amplifiers available on the market claim ex-tremely low THD figures, at the very limit of instrumentation measurement, assuming this resultnecessarily leads to outstanding sound purity. Wetake this with some caution, since it recalls for usthe 70-80' Japanese philosophy, by which "per-formance" implies "quality". We have to be fair byacknowledging that such designs can be liked andeven loved by audiophiles. The world is big enoughfor multi musical tastes.
The idea is very nice indeed, and we do admiresuch a philosophical approach, even if it is notours: the problem is that those designs are highlysophisticated – too much for our ears – involvinglots of added transistors, op amps, and higher thanreasonable NFB, leading finally to altered soundstructure.
These electronics can be considered as very pureand detailed for the first listening hours or days,but once noticed, their sonic signature becomesharder and harder to bear.
This sort of feels right to me...
alexandre
@1% thd , for discussion, this is like giving and unrealistic tops speed going down a hill ...
For Audio reference , you have to look at their distortion vs power output, at the apex of the curve is the realistic output, the sonics go to hell on the other side of the curve due to the fast risetime of THD.. Doing so this amp is no where near 1000 watts .... you have to read the whole thing thru , not just best case ..
Regards,
Mep,
So now I'm naive.... !!!
I have an issue with your reasoning or lack thereof MEP, too much dogma and not enuff discussion for my taste, of course measurements are to be taken by a competent engineer/technician, isn't this academic. If measurements are irrelevant why take them, if listening is irrelevant why listen, its academic that both are relevant, obvious there is a sliding scale as to how much of both is relevant, fact is , measurements tell everything, at issue is the ignorance in evaluating such by all, this is the bigger issue, not the measurements themselves.
Measurements are the guiding light to what we hear, all engineers use them, from those that measure poorly, they say it doesn't matter , those that measures well, they say its everything ..
I would never design an audio gear without listening and absolutely have to measure, consider this, what most here enjoy is the harmonic structure of the electronics they choose, in other-wards, their distortion spectra. You can view such , via stereophiles test results, by doing such you will have a picture of what distortion spectra tickles your fancy, you will have your equivalent to an audio DNA, I'm sure you will find a picture after looking over your favorite amplifier list ...
Regards,
So now I'm naive.... !!!
I have an issue with your reasoning or lack thereof MEP, too much dogma and not enuff discussion for my taste, of course measurements are to be taken by a competent engineer/technician, isn't this academic. If measurements are irrelevant why take them, if listening is irrelevant why listen, its academic that both are relevant, obvious there is a sliding scale as to how much of both is relevant, fact is , measurements tell everything, at issue is the ignorance in evaluating such by all, this is the bigger issue, not the measurements themselves.
Measurements are the guiding light to what we hear, all engineers use them, from those that measure poorly, they say it doesn't matter , those that measures well, they say its everything ..
I would never design an audio gear without listening and absolutely have to measure, consider this, what most here enjoy is the harmonic structure of the electronics they choose, in other-wards, their distortion spectra. You can view such , via stereophiles test results, by doing such you will have a picture of what distortion spectra tickles your fancy, you will have your equivalent to an audio DNA, I'm sure you will find a picture after looking over your favorite amplifier list ...
Regards,
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