One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond
- Thread starter Steve williams
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You're not that far Lee, welcome to stop by and I wouldn't mind getting a few sd pointers for older guys!
david
Horns came naturally to WE when they were designing their theater systems. IMO horns still are the most natural way to sound reproduction, problem today is that for the most part its a lost art specially when it comes down to the available cone drivers. No one today is making paper cones light and fast enough to blend with the compression drivers and that's one of the reasons why you see so many half baked solutions for the bass section on the market. Low wattage SETs are the natural partners to horns and even JBLs who make their own drivers lack the sensitivity and efficiency for SETs.
david
I am planning to visit sometime later this year. Looks like it will be November, as I want to visit one other person on that trip who is not ready yet. I have 3 more western Electric demos before the Bionor. I think Vintage horns, and then maybe vintage gear, is the next hobby. It trumps all.
The WE systems in Munich too used to use $5/m cables, like ddk, and they trod all over the Magico Ultimates, Vox, etc at Munich in 2014. I have no doubt the Bionors will too.
How long did were you there, Steve, it must be tough to demo so much gear.
The WE systems in Munich too used to use $5/m cables, like ddk, and they trod all over the Magico Ultimates, Vox, etc at Munich in 2014. I have no doubt the Bionors will too.
How long did were you there, Steve, it must be tough to demo so much gear.
Got there Thursday afternoon and left Monday. Heard everything except the Goldmund Reference and the Micro Seiki SZ-1t, SX-8000II & SX-8000
Great thread Steve. I agree that people really love reading about this stuff and fellow enthusiasts' systems. This and your recent three amigo thread are wonderful reads. Thank you for making the effort to share this with the forum.
Your enthusiasm for this particular system is clear in the OP. It makes me wonder if we have really advanced home audio in the past few decades. Of course, this system is at an extreme end of the hobby and those speakers require huge space and commitment, as does all of that vintage analog gear. It is inspiring to read that someone has gone to these efforts and is so welcoming to others. Just wonderful.
Fellow member Ack, uses that Oistrakh/Bruch Scottish Fantasia LP for reference. And I love the Peggy Lee Greatest Hits LP. Looks like you are getting the Fever for analog.
Your enthusiasm for this particular system is clear in the OP. It makes me wonder if we have really advanced home audio in the past few decades. Of course, this system is at an extreme end of the hobby and those speakers require huge space and commitment, as does all of that vintage analog gear. It is inspiring to read that someone has gone to these efforts and is so welcoming to others. Just wonderful.
Fellow member Ack, uses that Oistrakh/Bruch Scottish Fantasia LP for reference. And I love the Peggy Lee Greatest Hits LP. Looks like you are getting the Fever for analog.
David, congratulations on this wonderful system. As an only analog guy, I'm intrigued by your collection of vintage gear and am particularly interested in your SME arms. Have you compared these SME 30xx arms to their latest V-12 arm in your system? I'm curious to know if the top SME arms have gotten any better over the years.
Perhaps this is better moved over to your system thread, but I saw you comment about the arms here.
I don't know much about Bionors but I doubt any new manufacturer has the budget and focus that Bell Labs spent on Western Electric speakers or that GIP spends on their tweeters. Those speakers were made to sound good, while current improvements are to have it more compact. You will find that those who have heard Western Electrics at Munich and like them really view the world as WE and then, far below, somewhere new hifi. I assume ddk's bionors fall in that category.
The Bruch Scorrish fantasia LP was the one that I loved in the WE demo at Munich this year. Best violin heard on hifi
If this is the best according to steve ( respect for david who put it together off course ) then it makes me wonder as peter already mentioned , where is the progress then in high end reproduction over the years ???
Apart from the lamm amps its all vintage .
I think however that regarding to house music which i also like this system wouldnt be optimally suited
Apart from the lamm amps its all vintage .
I think however that regarding to house music which i also like this system wouldnt be optimally suited
Hi I meant ddk's speakers fall in WE category, different from new hifi, which PeterA was referencing. I think David has heard both WE and Bionor. You should travel to South Korea where one of the Hyundai owners is opening, or has opened, a WE museum that has 20 or so rooms
Thank you Peter!
Your question is difficult to answer as it rests directly on my personal preference and favorite adjective, "Natural". The 3012 hits the "Natural" bullseye, specially in the low frequencies which have always been the most difficult to produce correctly and naturally for all equipment. There could be better arms out there but I stopped looking years ago because the 3012 is good enough where its important to me. I haven't heard the V-12 only the V that its based on. My SME V came with silver wiring standard, a sound that I detest, probably one of the reasons that I didn't take to the FR-66s. The V was dryer than the 3012 but yet more detailed in the mid, the kind of hyper detail that was bordering on hifi, something that was becoming the vogue in the 80's & 90's. Where the V really failed miserably for me while hailed by the reviewers was in the bass, tight and deep but totally unnatural and colored. In many ways the sound was technically great, the V had full control but never allowed the music to breath and come to life naturally. That's what I heard on my table and every subsequent exposure to the arm only re-enforced what I had heard. I had a Micro Seiki SX-8000 at the time, YMMV on a suspended table.
david
There are some differences between WE & Siemens theater horns. WE is a full range horn and depending on the model you have anywhere from 130hz-6khz to 80hz-8khz. The sound is very seductive and natural but limited and I've never heard a convincing presentation with the addition of woofers and tweeters to the horns. The Siemens is almost full range 50hz-16khz, not difficult to match and extend the lows another 20-25hz with subs. At the end of the day the Bionor is more dynamic and by extension more natural than what I found with any WE system. I wouldn't know where to start if I had to design bass cabinets and crossovers for WE speakers, unfortunately from what I've heard to date neither has anyone else...
david
Makes you wonder, doesn't it? And yes they do kick butt on house music, I just have to make some minor adjustment to the sub's crossover.
david
http://junkyardjukebox.blogspot.com/2012/10/western-electric-12a13a-adam-and-eve-of.html
There are many reports of folks like David who swear that a great horn is the "last word" in good audio reproduction. I guess the real mystery is, how did we lose our way from 1926 "SOA" sound reproduction using speakers such as the WE 12A/13A? I guess some would say we haven't really made much progress at all in nearly 100 years of loudspeaker design. So, are all current audiophiles and speaker manufacturers really nuts, if those ancient horns are as good as many say? At the very least, I'm now motivated to finding good horn systems and listening carefully to them.
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