One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond

[Bruce B]

If someone could reverse engineer them, at least you could get close to the original sound and still beat all modern high-end speakers.

 

[andromedaaudio]

That would be doable for a serious company withy enough resources , but since only a few of them have been sold that would be a gamble for such a company , maybe the mix and match that david has brought into the system has a great part in the overal sound

 

[microstrip]

Great report Steve. As I have been traveling with limited bandwidth I only now went through the fabulous pictures and posts.

I really enjoyed reading your journey - it is clear that David owns what we here call a "system with a soul".

 

[Steve williams]

if those ancient horns are as good as many say? At the very least, I'm now motivated to finding good horn systems and listening carefully to them

Marty

Your first stop ( and likely your best stop) should be in Cedar City Utah

 

[bonzo75]

http://junkyardjukebox.blogspot.com/2012/10/western-electric-12a13a-adam-and-eve-of.html

There are many reports of folks like David who swear that a great horn is the "last word" in good audio reproduction. I guess the real mystery is, how did we lose our way from 1926 "SOA" sound reproduction using speakers such as the WE 12A/13A? I guess some would say we haven't really made much progress at all in nearly 100 years of loudspeaker design. So, are all current audiophiles and speaker manufacturers really nuts, if those ancient horns are as good as many say? At the very least, I'm now motivated to finding good horn systems and listening carefully to them.

For me that's a given. In 1926 Bell Labs put more money in research than the high end systems do today. The WE that were made had to be escorted to the theaters under armed security. The money that GIP puts in it's drivers R&D is supposed to be extremely high. The people who buy these WE systems are those who can afford Wilson Alexandrias for their kitchen system. One of the owners of Hyundai, a billionaire, spent 100k just to fly them to Munich so people could hear them. This year I went to Munich just to listen to WE. I spent minimal time on Vox Olympians and the rest, only when I had to stretch my legs.

The WE are by no means a complete top to bottom frequency perfect system, yet more magical. From what ddk says the Bionors are even more complete.

This is a good article I had posted, from Lenco heaven, on why vintage hifi is better than today's hifi - as the poster says in the original thread, it is just for reading not debating.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...n-today-s-hifi&p=321409&viewfull=1#post321409

Edit: Sorry that thread is from diyaudio, not Lenco

http://junkyardjukebox.blogspot.com/2012/10/western-electric-12a13a-adam-and-eve-of.html

So, are all current audiophiles and speaker manufacturers really nuts, if those ancient horns are as good as many say?

Why do people drink Coke and Pepsi instead of natural exotic fruit juice? American firms are the best at marketing and branding. People start buying before they know why. Distribution and service is better with today's hifi. As Kotler would say, apart from Product, there is Price, Promotion, and Place (Distribution) that make a consumer buy

 

[Steve williams]

On my next trip back it will be to hear David's collection of Micro Sekei TTs and the Goldmund Reference and a longer listen to the EMT 927 which uses an idler. I was fascinated that when turned on it achieved correct speed in a matter of a few seconds. David also played a record on the 927 that was so warped that I asked David if he were concerned for any damage to the cartridge if played. He smiled at me and lowered the arm and not only did it track perfectly it also sounded perfect. It is a beautifully made turntable and IMO was darn close to the American Sound.

 

[ddk]

http://junkyardjukebox.blogspot.com/2012/10/western-electric-12a13a-adam-and-eve-of.html

There are many reports of folks like David who swear that a great horn is the "last word" in good audio reproduction. I guess the real mystery is, how did we lose our way from 1926 "SOA" sound reproduction using speakers such as the WE 12A/13A? I guess some would say we haven't really made much progress at all in nearly 100 years of loudspeaker design. So, are all current audiophiles and speaker manufacturers really nuts, if those ancient horns are as good as many say? At the very least, I'm now motivated to finding good horn systems and listening carefully to them.

One thing to keep in mind is that we're really focusing on at most a handful of companies and their speakers, the majority were nothing to get excited about. Ironically neither WE, Siemens Klangfilm speakers and their ilk were designed with the idea of high end, they were commercial but properly and honestly engineered theater products to sit behind a screen but they did set the standard for others to follow. Look at what sets the standard today, THX, the biggest load of $hit ever! Sound technology invented for fake, unnatural sound effects on the cheap and crappy. Any wonder why SQ in high end is moving further and further away from naturalness and reality to technical and hifi? Anyone saw the latest Jurassic World, the fastest and highest grossing caca, that's our culture today...

david

 

[bonzo75]

Which is the vintage TT, that he and Bruce B reported sounded better than Techdas AF2?

 

[ddk]

If someone could reverse engineer them, at least you could get close to the original sound and still beat all modern high-end speakers.

Certain things are just a lost art gone with the minds behind them. Tried copying the baffle, without the horn and couldn't even get that done right...

david

 

[ddk]

That would be doable for a serious company withy enough resources , but since only a few of them have been sold that would be a gamble for such a company , maybe the mix and match that david has brought into the system has a great part in the overal sound

Let's just say that a digital amp of any level isn't going to cut it and both the Bionors & Lamm have found their natural match. Having good friends like Mr. Neumann don't hurt either.

david

 

[Steve williams]

I'm have indeed said that David's system has become my new reference. I also said that David's mantra is " it has to sound NATURAL. The bottom end on his system is the most relaxed but yet the best I have ever heard. In fact it redefines my definition of what bass should sound like. He does use two large JBL subs which are barely on and if I didn't mention are powered by Lamm ML 1's. These merely extend the range of his Bionors which go down to 50. The subs add a slight bit of ambience to the sound. I also use a pair of subs in my too for ambience as well and was always feeling good about my system. Having heard how David's bottom end sounds it is making me rethink a lot of things also when you hear his system you will instantly understand what he means by natural. This is a system that I have just never encountered in my 50 years in this hobby. There was no fatigue. Five days of constant listening was not enough. The sound stage easily changed from a solo singer to a jazz quartet at a night club to a heavy metal rock band to a huge orchestral. When we played the last album of the trip which was Rodrigo y Gabriela Live in Japan I could literally feel my skin tingle to the resonance of the strings of their guitars. I would say that if anyone has the room and the means these speakers definitely are best served with an SET tube amp. Solid state IMO would never produce the sound David had.

 

[Steve williams]

BTW no pun intended as to how Davids bottom end sounds

 

[PeterA]

Thank you Peter!

Your question is difficult to answer as it rests directly on my personal preference and favorite adjective, "Natural".

David, I very much appreciate your use of the word, "natural". Though completely different in scale, scope and execution, "natural" is the word that I too most often use to describe my system. I often listen to the Boston Symphony Orchestra. What strikes me most about the sound of those performances is the utter clarity and ease of the sound. There is tremendous energy and yet a complete lack of fatigue. Of course, that sound is natural, and it is the reference I use when evaluating and enjoying my own system.

I have come to learn that there is no such thing as an "absolute sound." The BSO does not sound like the VPO. Each hall, instrument, and performer sounds different. But what they have in common with almost every performance of an acoustic instrument that I have ever heard is that they all sound utterly natural.

 

[LL21]

I'm have indeed said that David's system has become my new reference. I also said that David's mantra is " it has to sound NATURAL. The bottom end on his system is the most relaxed but yet the best I have ever heard. In fact it redefines my definition of what bass should sound like. He does use two large JBL subs which are barely on and if I didn't mention are powered by Lamm ML 1's. These merely extend the range of his Bionors which go down to 50. The subs add a slight bit of ambience to the sound. I also use a pair of subs in my too for ambience as well and was always feeling good about my system. Having heard how David's bottom end sounds it is making me rethink a lot of things also when you hear his system you will instantly understand what he means by natural. This is a system that I have just never encountered in my 50 years in this hobby. There was no fatigue. Five days of constant listening was not enough. The sound stage easily changed from a solo singer to a jazz quartet at a night club to a heavy metal rock band to a huge orchestral. When we played the last album of the trip which was Rodrigo y Gabriela Live in Japan I could literally feel my skin tingle to the resonance of the strings of their guitars. I would say that if anyone has the room and the means these speakers definitely are best served with an SET tube amp. Solid state IMO would never produce the sound David had.

Now that's an endorsement. Would love to hear it someday, and certainly glad to have received the benefit of some seriously good advice from DDK online and offline. And glad i saved his messages so i can refer back to them!!

 

[PeterA]

There was no fatigue. Five days of constant listening was not enough. The sound stage easily changed from a solo singer to a jazz quartet at a night club to a heavy metal rock band to a huge orchestral. When we played the last album of the trip which was Rodrigo y Gabriela Live in Japan I could literally feel my skin tingle to the resonance of the strings of their guitars.

This is the mark of a successful system.

 

[PeterA]

I would say that if anyone has the room and the means these speakers definitely are best served with an SET tube amp. Solid state IMO would never produce the sound David had.

That is interesting. I wonder if David has any experience with the SS Pass FirstWatt amplifiers. I think they are single-ended Class A very low power and ultra quite which is why Magico used them when demostrating their extremely efficient Ultimate 3 horn speaker system. David's speakers are also highly efficient. There must not be any noise issues with the Lamm SET amps driving such efficient speakers.

 

[microstrip]

I'm have indeed said that David's system has become my new reference. I also said that David's mantra is " it has to sound NATURAL. The bottom end on his system is the most relaxed but yet the best I have ever heard. In fact it redefines my definition of what bass should sound like. He does use two large JBL subs which are barely on and if I didn't mention are powered by Lamm ML 1's. These merely extend the range of his Bionors which go down to 50. The subs add a slight bit of ambience to the sound. I also use a pair of subs in my too for ambience as well and was always feeling good about my system. Having heard how David's bottom end sounds it is making me rethink a lot of things also when you hear his system you will instantly understand what he means by natural. This is a system that I have just never encountered in my 50 years in this hobby. There was no fatigue. Five days of constant listening was not enough. The sound stage easily changed from a solo singer to a jazz quartet at a night club to a heavy metal rock band to a huge orchestral. When we played the last album of the trip which was Rodrigo y Gabriela Live in Japan I could literally feel my skin tingle to the resonance of the strings of their guitars. I would say that if anyone has the room and the means these speakers definitely are best served with an SET tube amp. Solid state IMO would never produce the sound David had.

Steve,

I still remember your post on Audiogon about listening to a 1" master taper Arnold/London Philharmonic Orchestra: Arnold Overtures in Paul Stubblebine studio using a custom active Magico suing 8 tube SETs. I know it was about seven years ago, but how would you compare these two great experiences, considering particularly large orchestra music?

BTW, most probably it is this sensation of "fatigue free" that periodically obliges me to return with great pleasure to the large Soundlabs. Perhaps I should definitively forget about my desire for a decent sized, nice looking and great sounding speaker and accept these obtrusive "doors" in my room.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve,

I still remember your post on Audiogon about listening to a 1" master taper Arnold/London Philharmonic Orchestra: Arnold Overtures in Paul Stubblebine studio using a custom active Magico suing 8 tube SETs. I know it was about seven years ago, but how would you compare these two great experiences, considering particularly large orchestra music?

BTW, most probably it is this sensation of "fatigue free" that periodically obliges me to return with great pleasure to the large Soundlabs. Perhaps I should definitively forget about my desire for a decent sized, nice looking and great sounding speaker and accept these obtrusive "doors" in my room.

Well Francisco if you have the space and I mean a really big space, have the means to afford these and then can even find them this would be the way to go (for me at least). The sound experience at Paul's studio those years ago was beautiful as well but not like David's system. I do hope that members in the area find a way to spend a few hours with David because truly this is an audiophile's oasis

 

[Mobiusman]

Steve,

Wonderful write-up and a thrill to read your responses to what sounds like the ultimate audio and music experience. Considering your former references and most recent acquisitions, it is hard to imagine what you experienced.

As I got rolling reports through Marty about your trip and was lost recalling the many horns that I have heard over the past 50 years. I could not help but have many flashbacks of a common special feeling when listening to good horns, folded or otherwise. They all seemed to have a power and cohesiveness that only live sounds can produce. To use one of your phrases, this trip sounded like the Seattle trip on steroids.

Perhaps these horns would work poolside!

Bravo David and Steve

 

[ddk]

That is interesting. I wonder if David has any experience with the SS Pass FirstWatt amplifiers. I think they are single-ended Class A very low power and ultra quite which is why Magico used them when demostrating their extremely efficient Ultimate 3 horn speaker system. David's speakers are also highly efficient. There must not be any noise issues with the Lamm SET amps driving such efficient speakers.

FirstWatt is a great amp for the price but really not anywhere close to Lamm class, not that Nelson ever try to sell it as such. Once I got a handle on the grounding the Lamms are dead quiet. I'm actually surprised that you can barely even hear tube rush. Steve can attest to that. I never heard that demo and have no idea how well the FW amps drive the Magico's but what I know for sure is that its only driving half the speaker, the bass section needs a lot more power.

David, I very much appreciate your use of the word, "natural". Though completely different in scale, scope and execution, "natural" is the word that I too most often use to describe my system. I often listen to the Boston Symphony Orchestra. What strikes me most about the sound of those performances is the utter clarity and ease of the sound. There is tremendous energy and yet a complete lack of fatigue. Of course, that sound is natural, and it is the reference I use when evaluating and enjoying my own system.

I have come to learn that there is no such thing as an "absolute sound." The BSO does not sound like the VPO. Each hall, instrument, and performer sounds different. But what they have in common with almost every performance of an acoustic instrument that I have ever heard is that they all sound utterly natural.

I learnt the value and meaning of that word the real hard way through endless upgrades, side grades and mostly from downgrades until I heard the Lamm ML2 for the first time, then everything fell into place. Like you I've been attending concerts, rehearsals and live recordings regularly, that nearness is what I always wanted. Perhaps we'll get together someday and exchange thoughts.

david