One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond

[ALF]

Steve, at our age, moving mountains can be risky with one's back

Yep, looking forward to the ML3's without the chassis resistant on the receiving end...easy flat loads are your friend!

Best thing, with a mono system...it is easy to get WAF, simple negotiation; okay honey, I'll only get one of those Bionars...

Have a great weekend!
Alan

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

But then again Alan I am not speaking for David. thanks

this is nothing more than two different opinions on arms. Does it make one more correct than the other? Probably not. One's choice of flavors

Lets not try to make a mountain out of a mole here Alan as you so often do

In fairness, Alan is not the only one, but that's another story for another day (or not).

With regard to silver cables, I tend to agree with David although I'm probably coming at it from a different angle. So allow me to explain.

We all my know what my system consists off and it is far from being anywhere close to David's and many, many others. The introduction of silver cabling/wiring has been of some benefit to me as the detail retrieval is unmatched in comparison. I almost look at it as an extra bit of help to get out sounds I couldn't retrieve before. However, I also don't think it sounds particularly natural. If I were to own a system anywhere near what David has (and others) I would probably take the silver cabling/wiring out of my system and go with high-quality copper. Perhaps this is also the reason I prefer MM over MC cartridges....although I'm about to try out a Dynavector DV20x2.

 

[ddk]

Thanks for the invitation guys....
Firstly let me say that the ability to have a dedicated listening room is the ultimate luxury in the 'High-End' stakes.
The limitations one faces without this facility forces choices which are not ideal nor expansive.
I simply haven't been able to audition different speaker systems in my 'listening room' (aka Living Room) like large planars or horns...nor is it possible to accommodate a collection of large turntables.
You are very lucky David and it is pleasing to see that you have taken maximum advantage of your good fortune..

When I met my wife it was already a man and his stereo so she had to accept both of us . The room is dedicated but its also a family den, I want everyone there to hang out..

I understand the conscious decision to unify your choice of tonearms because of the many turntables and cartridges you possess. This allows you to confidently understand the character of each and every turntable and cartridge and I applaud this.
Having said that, I am a little surprised by your choice of tonearm although I have not personally heard the SME. I do own the SAEC WE-8000S/T which is also a 12" double knife edge design and I love it.

It performs wonderfully with a vast selection of my MM cartridges.
Your comments on the Fidelity Research FR-66s

are at odds with my experiences and those of most others in your elite group? I'm not sure if the FR-66s originally came with silver wiring? I've owned three FR-64s tonearms and some of these did have original silver wiring like the one I currently own. Perhaps you were unlucky with a faulty FR-66s?
I'm also a little surprised that your inventory of vintage LOMCs does not appear to include any of the Fidelity Research FR-7 range?

Are they not to your tastes?
And finally...can you please describe what you find different (and preferable) in the sound of vintage LOMC cartridges to those currently in production?

I had this conversation with our German friend. Its not so much that I don't like the FR-66s, its that I like the 3012-R better. Our friend's appreciating the 3012-R more & more as he's getting more experience with it. I had several of them and all silver wired never saw one without but in the 64s I had both silver and copper versions. I'm not familiar with your WE-8000 I only had WE-803L versions, also very good arms. My favorite Japanese tonearm is the Dyna 505v. Moving up the turntable chain, the bass is where major improvements come in and sonically I find the 3012 by far the most natural sounding of all of them. Yes, there's the standardization and practicality too that becomes important with this many arms and cartridges, SME's sled base is the fastest to work with for me. I use the same arm cables too with all of them so another standard that I know and am familiar with, the only wild card here are the headshells, still working on that.

With cartridges, I tend to like the European sound better, Ortofon, EMT and some Decca. Had the silver bodied FR-7 but not the FR-7f like yours, again very nice but prefer a different balance in the sound, what I dislike are the FR/Ikeda cantilever less models, they can't track anything and a little bit of dust throws them all over the place.

As far as silver wire goes, you won't find any in my place !

david

 

[ddk]

In fairness, Alan is not the only one, but that's another story for another day (or not).

With regard to silver cables, I tend to agree with David although I'm probably coming at it from a different angle. So allow me to explain.

We all my know what my system consists off and it is far from being anywhere close to David's and many, many others. The introduction of silver cabling/wiring has been of some benefit to me as the detail retrieval is unmatched in comparison. I almost look at it as an extra bit of help to get out sounds I couldn't retrieve before. However, I also don't think it sounds particularly natural. If I were to own a system anywhere near what David has (and others) I would probably take the silver cabling/wiring out of my system and go with high-quality copper. Perhaps this is also the reason I prefer MM over MC cartridges....although I'm about to try out a Dynavector DV20x2.

I like MM cartridges and have several of them, just didn't have them setup when Steve was here. They have a lot advantages and track better in 9"-10" arms than most MC cartridges, a lot less distortion.

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) With cartridges, I tend to like the European sound better, Ortofon, EMT and some Decca. (...)

David,

Van den Hul is known to appreciate a lot the EMT cartridge - the first EMT I have listened to was a vdH modified EMT. His naked top cartridges resemble a lot the old EMT, as he uses a ‘flux modulator" quite similar to that of the EMT in their design.

Do you have any experience with the vdH modified EMT?

 

[ddk]

David,

Van den Hul is known to appreciate a lot the EMT cartridge - the first EMT I have listened to was a vdH modified EMT. His naked top cartridges resemble a lot the old EMT, as he uses a ‘flux modulator" quite similar to that of the EMT in their design.

Do you have any experience with the vdH modified EMT?

Not yet ! But you read my mind and that's exactly what I was going to buy next.

david

 

[airbearing]

TechDas, Micro Seiki and even*Continuum aren't air bearings.

They are all only vertical supported by air and still feature a traditional bearing shaft with the usual issues coming with this design.

The only true bi-radial air bearing in turntables I know so far has been the APOLYT.


a real air bearing means that the platter is transported by air on all sections, vertical as well as horizontal.

Air being filled in from all sides comprises a true bi-radial air bearing. In the past the enormous air consumption for the quietly working compressors put a limit to the success of air bearings. This might change having at hand now quite some powerful whispering compressors.

 

[Halcro]

I like MM cartridges and have several of them, just didn't have them setup when Steve was here. They have a lot advantages and track better in 9"-10" arms than most MC cartridges, a lot less distortion.

david

Ohhh....good to hear..
I thought I read somewhere that you concentrated solely on MCs?
I agree with you on the Dynavector arm.

My latest arm, the DV507MkII is impressive. Because of it's 1.5Kg weight and its form of operation (with the main arm beam travelling only in a horizontal motion)....it really benefits from a massive independent armpod together with careful attention to levelling..

I'm looking forward to your review of the EMT 927 and how it compares to the other classics.
I think that for our friend (AirBearing)...this still holds the No.1 position?
It will be interesting to see what Steve says when he is able to listen next time he visits?

 

[Steve williams]

I heard the EMT 927 at Davids and loved it and would put it very equal to the AS. I was floored as to how fast the EMT got up to speed. Probably less than 5 seconds. Also I didn't hear it with that special Neumann DST cartridge that was on the AS. This plus the fact that the AS was total eye jewelry whereas the EMT looked like a studio work horse. David also played a record that was so warped that I was astonished he played it but what was more amazing is that the EMT tracked perfectly without a glitch

 

[airbearing]

Steve, indeed the 927 used to be a workhorse, quite right! Nevertheless it's looks vary a little - just a little...

www.AudioCirc.com

 

[airbearing]

Cannata,

hope you were on a good school. What I am reading does not convince me why it shouldn't be possible using air bearings for turntables. As Andromedaaudio pointed out you see them today in the industry. all modern assembly machines for high precision applications are air bearing based. These are complex robotic arms working with high speed wearing price targets way beyond the most expensive turntables.

 

[Audiocrack]

Today I stumbled upon this thread and it was indeed an interesting read. David has some very strong views on audio/music reproduction and that is completely fine with me. Intriguing and I suppose at the same time somewhat sobering (or should I say: hopeful?) - given the obscene pricing of todays state of the art audio equipment - that vintage audio equipment can sound this good.

 

[Halcro]

Today I stumbled upon this thread and it was indeed an interesting read. David has some very strong views on audio/music reproduction and that is completely fine with me. Intriguing and I suppose at the same time somewhat sobering (or should I say: hopeful?) - given the obscene pricing of todays state of the art audio equipment - that vintage audio equipment can sound this good.

Dear Audiocrack,
Don't be so hopeful until you check out the prices of some of this vintage stuff.
That's if you can even find any available for sale.....?
There are more connoisseurs in the larger audio international world than you might think...

 

[Audiocrack]

Dear Audiocrack,
Don't be so hopeful until you check out the prices of some of this vintage stuff.
That's if you can even find any available for sale.....?
There are more connoisseurs in the larger audio international world than you might think...

Hello Halcro, I suppose you are right. Well, then I have to stick with the recently produced audio toys and somehow learn to cope with these outrageous prices (as I am currently doing of course).

 

[microstrip]

Dear Audiocrack,
Don't be so hopeful until you check out the prices of some of this vintage stuff.
That's if you can even find any available for sale.....?
There are more connoisseurs in the larger audio international world than you might think...

A few days ago I was offered a mint EMT 927 for half the cost of the Tech Das AF1 - a real bargain!

 

[Steve williams]

Dear Audiocrack,
Don't be so hopeful until you check out the prices of some of this vintage stuff.
That's if you can even find any available for sale.....?
There are more connoisseurs in the larger audio international world than you might think...

I would second that as well Audiocrack. The vintage world transcends in price beyond your wildest imaginations as I found when visiting David. Try finding an American Sound turntable with a Neumann DST cartridge and let's talk. Putting together a vintage system involves not only having the means and wherewithal but also the space and being able to find what you are searching for. This is such a different sound that it is almost difficult to describe because it is so perfect and all with home made cables and no Tripoint or any other foufrou to get in the way of the signal. It is all natural. I wouldn't be so quick to discount vintage as inexpensive or undesirable. As I have said before, it has become my new reference

 

[ddk]

Ohhh....good to hear..
I thought I read somewhere that you concentrated solely on MCs?
I agree with you on the Dynavector arm.

My latest arm, the DV507MkII is impressive. Because of it's 1.5Kg weight and its form of operation (with the main arm beam travelling only in a horizontal motion)....it really benefits from a massive independent armpod together with careful attention to levelling..

I'm looking forward to your review of the EMT 927 and how it compares to the other classics.
I think that for our friend (AirBearing)...this still holds the No.1 position?
It will be interesting to see what Steve says when he is able to listen next time he visits?

Hi Halcro,

I mentioned the mm cartridges in another post,

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...he-Pleasures-Beyond&highlight=Cartridges+gems.

Lets just say that the EMT won't be fighting anyone for 2nd place. More to come!

david

 

[ddk]

A few days ago I was offered a mint EMT 927 for half the cost of the Tech Das AF1 - a real bargain!

The top vintage tables and speakers are still extreme bargains and will only appreciate in price, you just have to be selective when purchasing, not all vintage is gold!

david

 

[Audiocrack]

I would second that as well Audiocrack. The vintage world transcends in price beyond your wildest imaginations as I found when visiting David. Try finding an American Sound turntable with a Neumann DST cartridge and let's talk. Putting together a vintage system involves not only having the means and wherewithal but also the space and being able to find what you are searching for. This is such a different sound that it is almost difficult to describe because it is so perfect and all with home made cables and no Tripoint or any other foufrou to get in the way of the signal. It is all natural. I wouldn't be so quick to discount vintage as inexpensive or undesirable. As I have said before, it has become my new reference

Steve, I am the last person to discount vintage gear as undesirable and my reactions on this thread did not imply otherwise. Still using a Forsell turntable that is at least 20 years old and I am still loving it dearly. However, I had no idea that (some of the) vintage gear could denand the same crazy prices as we have to pay for current top high end components. So from a price perspective that is indeed sobering. I am not questioning that David has very good systems. That said, asDavid I have some strong opinions and I am convinced that inserting Tripoint products will make the sound even better.

 

[ddk]

Steve, I am the last person to discount vintage gear as undesirable and my reactions on this thread did not imply otherwise. Still using a Forsell turntable that is at least 20 years old and I am still loving it dearly. However, I had no idea that (some of the) vintage gear could denand the same crazy prices as we have to pay for current top high end components. So from a price perspective that is indeed sobering. I am not questioning that David has very good systems. That said, asDavid I have some strong opinions and I am convinced that inserting Tripoint products will make the sound even better.

Your posts have been very clear Audiocrack, I don't think that you discounted anything. Even with the current pricing the reality is that the top vintage gear still cost a fraction of their modern counterparts; which in many cases aren't any. Aside from the very top and the rarest, there are some incredible bargains out there that can be picked up for next to nothing. But here on WBF we only focus on the BEST!

Ground, grounding and all things electrical have been my pet peeve for a very long time, its been an uphill battle forever ! I tried the product you mentioned along with its direct competitor and even went further with my own experiments. They don't have universal application and the level of their success and failure is system dependent, including the associated electrical plant. I generally prefer industrial solutions over audiophile ones when it comes to things electrical, there's a lot more transparency, no hype, backed by well known trusted brands and you have access to their engineers for tech support.

Vintage, modern, mystery boxes, etc., whichever choose is really a very personal choice. What's difficult is understanding how the gear work and knowing how and what system to setup in a particular space. There's a lot more to it than just connecting a group of expensive boxes together and throwing a few tweaks for good measure, that's where all the difference is made.

david