Orchestra in a small room - Is it possible?

[treitz3]

I think we have to remember that audio soundstage is part illusion. Imaging is not limited by the size of the room. I have heard systems recreate the sound of a dog barking my neighbors yard. or a car blowing its horn down the street. It is entirely possible that the perception of the soundstage can expand beyond your walls. i am currently evalauating the Sennheiser HD 800s headphone. On Stravinsky Firebird Suite I can perceive a good sense of the size and scale of the hall. Aided by my eyes because it is a video.
I don't think you'll get an exact replica but you can come close. Remember Harry Pearson(the late publisher/editor the absolute sound) using the Infinity IRS in a tiny room.

Gregg, I recently heard a recording that placed a dog barking 40 feet behind the listening position. Can't remember the song it was on but I had to rewind it to make sure I wasn't going crazy, hearing things that couldn't have possibly......well, been possible.

Since I sit about 10 feet away from the speakers, that placed the phantom image 50 feet away from the speakers.

I just got done listening to Eric Kunzel and the Cincinnati Pops play , "Olympic Fanfare". As the goose bumps were swarming all over my body, I thought of this thread and revisited it.

My thoughts on this have not changed. I hate to say it but I would be so bold as to say that if you can't fit a 50 foot wide orchestra in your small room, then something is amiss in your system.

I say this not to cause strife but to let folks know that it is entirely possible, that if they cannot emulate an orchestra in a small room, it's time to start working on things. Strive to achieve better. At least try.

If your walls and speakers do not completely disappear, then that system is in need of some work. To me, this is an extremely important aspect to achieve the spatial locationality cues needed to pull of phantom images from all over the place.

Tom

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Near-field listening may help but, IMHO, it is only possible with multichannel. Neither the "they are here" nor the "you are there" paradigms can be successfully achieved in a small room.

I don't recall writing this but I am sure that I did. However, it does not really express what I mean to say. So, another try:

Near-field listening may help but, IMHO, it is only possible with multichannel, whether in a large room or small. Individual phenomena can be impressive and I continue to be impressed with some already mentioned as well as with "The Garage Door."

However, the (re)presentation an orchestra and the necessary hall abiance with fully directional cues requires multichannel or "immersive" media. Stereo can only offer a window (large or small) on the event along with spatial cues which are reflected and colored by room acoustics.

 

[Gjo]

Gregg, I recently heard a recording that placed a dog barking 40 feet behind the listening position. Can't remember the song it was on but I had to rewind it to make sure I wasn't going crazy, hearing things that couldn't have possibly......well, been possible.

Since I sit about 10 feet away from the speakers, that placed the phantom image 50 feet away from the speakers.

My guess is that was Roger Waters’ “Amused to Death”, and yes it’s remarkable.

“Amused to Death” was recorded using the QSound system. Interestingly, the spatial effects on that record can be appreciated on a system that isn’t dialed in, although good speaker placement certainly maximizes the impact.

QSound was also used on Sting’s “Soul Cages” among many others.

Who's Using QSound Audio Technology: Recording Artists P - Z

A list of recording artists using QSound audio technology for that extra sonic sizzle. QSound Labs offers a complete suite of cutting-edge, proven 3D audio technologies that are broadly deployed in dedicated hardware, digital signal processors and PC host processors at various levels from user...

www.qsound.com

 

[Joe Whip]

I am with Kal. I have an Atmos 5.1.2 system in a 10x15 room and get stellar results with orchestral music. The sense of scale and dynamics comes closer to the real thing than any 2 channel system I have heard, I especially love the Atmos mixes from DG.

 

[Steve williams]

My guess is that was Roger Waters’ “Amused to Death”, and yes it’s remarkable.

“Amused to Death” was recorded using the QSound system. Interestingly, the spatial effects on that record can be appreciated on a system that isn’t dialed in, although good speaker placement certainly maximizes the impact.

QSound was also used on Sting’s “Soul Cages” among many others.

Who's Using QSound Audio Technology: Recording Artists P - Z

A list of recording artists using QSound audio technology for that extra sonic sizzle. QSound Labs offers a complete suite of cutting-edge, proven 3D audio technologies that are broadly deployed in dedicated hardware, digital signal processors and PC host processors at various levels from user...

www.qsound.com

That was my first thought as well. The dog is actually well off to the side. IIRC the album was recorded in Q sound

 

[Gjo]

That was my first thought as well. The dog is actually well off to the side. IIRC the album was recorded in Q sound

Correct. Recorded in QSound, as I mentioned (with a link to all other albums recorded in QSound).

QSound recordings are not great tests for audiophile systems because of the sound trickery used, IMO.

Better to use binaural or stereo/multi-channel acoustic recordings that eschew spatial effects like QSound.

 

[Gregadd]

Gregg, I recently heard a recording that placed a dog barking 40 feet behind the listening position. Can't remember the song it was on but I had to rewind it to make sure I wasn't going crazy, hearing things that couldn't have possibly......well, been possible.

Since I sit about 10 feet away from the speakers, that placed the phantom image 50 feet away from the speakers.

I just got done listening to Eric Kunzel and the Cincinnati Pops play , "Olympic Fanfare". As the goose bumps were swarming all over my body, I thought of this thread and revisited it.

My thoughts on this have not changed. I hate to say it but I would be so bold as to say that if you can't fit a 50 foot wide orchestra in your small room, then something is amiss in your system.

I say this not to cause strife but to let folks know that it is entirely possible, that if they cannot emulate an orchestra in a small room, it's time to start working on things. Strive to achieve better. At least try.

If your walls and speakers do not completely disappear, then that system is in need of some work. To me, this is an extremely important aspect to achieve the spatial locationality cues needed to pull of phantom images from all over the place.

Tom

I have audited the barking dog phenomenon. Berta by Branford Marselis. If in a small room is easier to imagine a lone dog barking from. it would be difficult to imagine a kennel of barking dogs inside that small. more difficult to separate them by loudness direction. You are correct. There is work to be done.

 

[treitz3]

That was my first thought as well. The dog is actually well off to the side. IIRC the album was recorded in Q sound

You both are correct. I had to find the album/song but in my system, the dog barking at about 14 or 15 seconds into the song? It's off to the right, about 40 feet back.

At least, this is how I first heard it. Now that I have a Novum MKII and the rig has completely changed.....and given the fact that I am still in flux with the new fuse? It's hard to tell. It seems much closer but my ears are also buggered by something at the moment.

What I do know is that the dog barking that I heard was at a louder volume and it was back in the kitchen.....which was NOT a possibility when I first heard it. No way, no how was it possible. But it still made me do a double take and rewind it so that I didn't lose my mind.

Tom

 

[Zeotrope]

That was my first thought as well. The dog is actually well off to the side. IIRC the album was recorded in Q sound

If you have the right setup, the dog emanates from behind and to the side!

 

[Zeotrope]

My system has recently developed to a place where I can begin to see the real appeal of reproduced orchestral music. Until this point, the limitations of my system had frankly left it uninteresting. But my system is barely capable of making it appealing. Is it possible to create a system that can do enjoyable orchestra reproduction in a small room?

(For those interested. My room is a thoroughly treated 10 x 13. System is: Custom server > Lampizator TRP > Bel Canto SET40i > Rosso Fiorentino Fiesole)

Absolutely! My room is 12x13 feet and I can close my eyes and ‘see’ a full orchestra in front of me.
Get the 3 Pillars right first: room treatment, AC/Ground noise filtering, vibration suppression.
I chose to do this with Stillpoints wall and ceiling panels, custom bass traps, Shunyata Denali/Typhon/Altaira, and Seismion + Taiko Daiza. It’s a costly, time consuming endeavour… not going to sugar coat it!

 

[Zeotrope]

Absolutely not possible!

How do you get a 50 foot wide orchestra in a small room??

Totally possible! By attenuating sidewall reflections and using speakers with great imaging. But the entire chain needs to be optimized — everything matters (unfortunately).