Pass Labs .8 Series!

[Robert]

I appreciate MadFloyd's critical listening and honesty in these threads. So many people make blanket statements about equipment, and in reading opinions, one might believe there is no such thing as a bad piece of audio equipment.

In my experience, newer or more expensive is not always better and I have such a fear of destroying the tonal balance of my system, that I am reluctant to purchase anything new or even move my system.

It seems that the 160.8 might be very good, but perhaps not a huge leap over the 160.5. Perhaps it is system dependent. When I am looking for an improvement, it needs to be all beneficial, not another series of trade-offs. The best we can do is to optimize the system with a new piece of equipment and trust your own ears.

 

[XV-1]

I think perhaps it is time to demo another amp or two with the Alexia.

Plenty of great amps out there.

 

[Bruce B]

I appreciate MadFloyd's critical listening and honesty in these threads. So many people make blanket statements about equipment, and in reading opinions, one might believe there is no such thing as a bad piece of audio equipment.

In my experience, newer or more expensive is not always better and I have such a fear of destroying the tonal balance of my system, that I am reluctant to purchase anything new or even move my system.

It seems that the 160.8 might be very good, but perhaps not a huge leap over the 160.5. Perhaps it is system dependent. When I am looking for an improvement, it needs to be all beneficial, not another series of trade-offs. The best we can do is to optimize the system with a new piece of equipment and trust your own ears.

+1 I think I'll wait this one out a bit. Thanks Ian

 

[rockitman]

does anyone doubt that the .8 series does not sound better than the .5 series ? I find it hard to believe Pass would make a class A biased amp that doesn't sound/perform better than the .5 series. Just sayin'

 

[Bruce B]

does anyone doubt that the .8 series does not sound better than the .5 series ? I find it hard to believe Pass would make a class A biased amp that doesn't sound/perform better than the .5 series. Just sayin'

I have my doubts. Like Robert said, it's all about compromises.... It may give you more bass slam, but the mid/top end may be the same or even worse. My next amp will have to be an improvement in the full frequency spectrum with added bonus of better imaging, depth... blah... blah... It should be a night/day difference before I go crawling to the CFO!

 

[rockitman]

I have my doubts. Like Robert said, it's all about compromises.... It may give you more bass slam, but the mid/top end may be the same or even worse. My next amp will have to be an improvement in the full frequency spectrum with added bonus of better imaging, depth... blah... blah... It should be a night/day difference before I go crawling to the CFO!

That would be achieved with the XS series...Trust

 

[PeterA]

I think perhaps it is time to demo another amp or two with the Alexia.

Plenty of great amps out there.

I've heard the Alexias in MadFloyd's system with the D'Agostino stereo amp, some Lamm and Doshi monos and with the Pass XA160.5 and XA160.8s. The D'Ag and Doshi have all gotten great reviews with the Alexia, however, the Pass have been by far the best combination in my opinion. He agreed and sold the rest. That impedance drop to 1.5 ohms or something has proven to be quite a challenge in his system and room. The Pass have given him the best bass control of the many amps that I have heard in his set up.

 

[MadFloyd]

I would love to try the Momentum again,but this time with the Pass preamp. I doubt that will happen though.

This weekend I will be going back to my XA160.5's to compare.

 

[Frank750]

does anyone doubt that the .8 series does not sound better than the .5 series ? I find it hard to believe Pass would make a class A biased amp that doesn't sound/perform better than the .5 series. Just sayin'

Absolutely correct. This has turned almost comical.

 

[microstrip]

No, I haven't. You?

Not yet. But an acquaintance who also owns Alexia's owns them (the Transparent Audio MM2 power cables + distributor) and is very pleased with them.

My heart is balancing between them and the full Shunyata system.

 

[MadFloyd]

Absolutely correct. This has turned almost comical.

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not saying that the .8's aren't as good as the .5's; I'm just saying that they have a different tonal balance. I can say the same thing about the XP-30 compared to the XP-20/XP-10.

 

[XV-1]

I would love to try the Momentum again,but this time with the Pass preamp. I doubt that will happen though.

This weekend I will be going back to my XA160.5's to compare.

My xp-20 sounds excellent with the Dag-S.

Your description of the xp-30 vs xp-20 mirrors a couple of reviews and removes any higher model envy from my part

Ultimately at this level it comes down to synergy and personal taste, so I certainly don't think this thread is comical.

I am appreciating you telling us how the amps are sounding in your system, not blindly sugar coating higher price is always better.

 

[LL21]

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not saying that the .8's aren't as good as the .5's; I'm just saying that they have a different tonal balance. I can say the same thing about the XP-30 compared to the XP-20/XP-10.

In my limited experience in upgrading to this level of system where you really do hear every change for better or worse, I will say that the change in tonal qualities is EXACTLY where it has taken me by far the longest to integrate new upgrades...by far. The clarity, the bass drive, the detail...those came very very quickly, in some cases instantly...but the tonal characteristcs changed each time I made one teeny little change, and it drove me nuts for 3 months. Eventually, I managed to keep all the upgrades (mainly isolation and cables) that I had been toying with...but get them all in the right position so that the tonality of the system had not changed.

So I hear what you are saying, and it can be very very trying to persevere thru this, and you may need to walk from improvements you may miss (dearly?) in order to preserve the tonality you would miss even more dearly. That is very tough to consider, and I was stubborn enough once I'd heard those new improvements to get thru it. Good luck. As someone who just likes to switch on the system and enjoy...I sympathize with what I suspect you are hearing.

 

[PeterA]

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not saying that the .8's aren't as good as the .5's; I'm just saying that they have a different tonal balance. I can say the same thing about the XP-30 compared to the XP-20/XP-10.

HI Ian, I agree with this, but in my much more limited time comparing the .5 and .8 in your system, the tonal balance difference seemed minor or somewhat less important to me compared to some of the other attributes I preferred with the .8, namely better control of the lower frequencies, ability to deal with that Alexia impedance dip, lower noise which improves low level detail and overall clarity. The .8 did seem slightly darker on some material, but that may have been break in related (also with new cables, cords) and the increased control and articulation of the lower frequencies which may be why the tonal balance seemed tipped down a bit. IMO, this can be addressed with slight speaker positioning changes, of which your Alexias are very accommodating.

I wonder now after much more break in time of both the amps and cables and cords, if the scale and imaging issues I raised in my report have improved. They seemed just a bit large as I remember on some material.

It's interesting you bring up the XP20/30. I had the 30 in my system for a brief comparison to my 20. I thought it sounded slightly warmer overall, but these descriptions are vague at best. I find it very difficult to describe these kinds of differences. The 30 was smoother and sweeter and I remember hearing "more" music. Tone was denser, noise was lower and it just sounded slightly more natural. The 30 may indeed be a future upgrade for me.

In the end, I prefer what I think of as a more neutral tonal balance, but I find it very difficult to identify precisely that as opposed to other characteristics which effect the perception of tonal shifts. As others, like Lloyd below, have written, differences at this level are indeed there, but it takes some time and experience to sort out exactly what they are and how to describe them to others. Perhaps just asking yourself which you enjoy more is a good start (or end) to the process.

Finally, two areas that I did not address in my earlier report are those of value and aesthetics. I personally prefer the look of the .5. It is a more deliberate design statement and clearly identifies the Pass brand (as did the very distinctive Aleph series of amps). I also liked the subtle differences between the XA and X lines in the .5 model range. The face plate can also serve as a grab handle for easier moving of the larger amps. The new .8 face plate must be less expensive to manufacture and is a bit more generic looking. The lower level blue meter lights though are a welcome improvement as are the impressive binding posts on the rear panel.

If one is thinking of buying either Pass amp new, the .8 price increase seems reasonable for the sonic improvements that I heard in Ian's system. However, as a current .5 owner, considering the price of a used .5, the cost to upgrade from say the 160.5 to the 160.8 is fairly substantial. The question of value then becomes more difficult to answer and can only be determined by the individual. I am noticing some .5 models for sale and they represent an excellent value on the used market. Not having heard the XS line, I can't comment about how much of that sound has trickled down into the .8.

 

[Bruce B]

HI Ian, I agree with this, but in my much more limited time comparing the .5 and .8 in your system, the tonal balance difference seemed minor or somewhat less important to me compared to some of the other attributes I preferred with the .8, namely better control of the lower frequencies, ability to deal with that Alexia impedance dip, lower noise which improves low level detail and overall clarity. The .8 did seem slightly darker on some material, but that may have been break in related (also with new cables, cords) and the increased control and articulation of the lower frequencies which may be why the tonal balance seemed tipped down a bit. IMO, this can be addressed with slight speaker positioning changes, of which your Alexias are very accommodating.

So you are blaming the better bass control on the design of the .8 series but blaming the dark sound on break-in and cables? How can you separate the two? You can't. The .8 series may sound darker because of the way it was designed. It may not be a flaw or compromise but the way it was actually designed.

I'll keep saving my money for the XS

 

[rockitman]

I'll keep saving my money for the XS

I hope you do. I would love to hear your impressions...I view the .8 as an incremental improvement over .5, the XS... big improvement. I don't think about amps anymore...

 

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for your thoughts, Peter. I actually like the look of the .8's - it's really grown on me. I'm also not considering the cost of them; perhaps I should be, but I'm really just trying to elevate my system. That said, I do think the Pass gear is exceptional value. I think it competes with more expensive gear that I could not afford - e.g. the D'Agostino Momentum monoblocks.

I also think there's not a lot of choices for Alexia owners when it comes to amplifiers that can control the bass (I am excluding tube amplifiers here even though I know the Doshis do an excellent job) or amplifiers that produce very deep bass (I don't believe any tube amps do this like solid state).

I am glad that some people appreciate that I am not just blindly singing the praises of the new amps. There is a thread on Audiogon where another new owner of XA160.8's compares them to his XA160.5's and says that right out of the box they were so much more transparent etc. I can't help but raise an eyebrow because I can tell you that out of the box ANY Pass amp has sounded like mud to me. Heck, even with these new amps broken in, I just so much as swap a power cable and it sounds like mud for a few hours. I am at the point in my system evolution that I can hear any change in the system fairly easily - even with my hearing challenges - see below.

I should remind folks that I have hearing loss in the upper frequencies (from playing in rock bands when I was younger). I also suffer from Eustachian Tube Disorder (at times my ears get blocked with crud preventing me from listening properly for either hours or even a full day or two).

My evaluation of the new .8's has been further compromised by me acquiring Shunyata power cords. They are a game changer. I don't think I could ever live without them. I keep thinking back to all my previous gear and wonder what I would have thought of those products if I had these power cords. The MITs I have been using *seem* to now be responsible for a certain amount of forwardness in the upper treble and some grain that I blamed other components for. Or maybe it's not so much the MITs producing these artifacts as the Shunyata removing them. Either way, the Shunyatas are mind blowing.

With my upper frequency hearing challenges, any tonal balance change that reduces the top end is not overly welcome. I have some 'test tracks' that I use to determine at what SPL I can hear hi-hats in the mix. 5 years ago with whatever my gear was then, it was 82db. It then rose a bit higher. The tracks have a LOT of bass in them which 'mask' the hi-hats for me. With the Shunyata power cords and the .8's I struggle to hear the hi-hats at any volume. To further confuse the issue, I will say that when I hear live music (small clubs, not stadiums) I have no trouble hearing ride cymbals or hi-hats and the tonal balance seems great. Make of that what you will.

That said, I'm often blown away by what my system is doing. The amount of presence in the bass and midrange is uncanny - at least for solid state. It reminds me a lot of my Doshis in terms of image size but much more solidity and power. I can listen to a lot of pop music without any glare and feel like the musicians are in the room (save for the drummer who would normally be a lot louder...). The system does so many things so well that the thought of sending these .8's back just kills me.

I'm away on business right now and am looking forward to getting home and listening again. I have avoided going back to my .5's for a while so I could continue to break in the .8's but this weekend I'm going to give them a fair shake (with the Shunyata power cords of course) to truly try and map out the differences between the two amps and I'll report back one final time.

Peter, if you're available and interested, you're welcome to come and listen.

Whatever the outcome, both these products (along with many other offerings these days) are excellent products. No two sound the same though, that much I can say with certainty.

 

[MadFloyd]

So you are blaming the better bass control on the design of the .8 series but blaming the dark sound on break-in and cables? How can you separate the two? You can't. The .8 series may sound darker because of the way it was designed. It may not be a flaw or compromise but the way it was actually designed.

I'll keep saving my money for the XS

Bruce, have you heard the XS?

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce, have you heard the XS?

Not in my system but many others.

 

[PeterA]

So you are blaming the better bass control on the design of the .8 series but blaming the dark sound on break-in and cables? How can you separate the two? You can't. The .8 series may sound darker because of the way it was designed. It may not be a flaw or compromise but the way it was actually designed.

I'll keep saving my money for the XS

Yes, I am attributing the better bass control on the design of the .8 series because we directly compared it to the .5 without changing anything else in the system. The difference in the Sheffield Drum Track was astonishing.

No, I am not blaming the dark sound (of the .8) on break-in and cables. I don't think the .8 is dark sounding. I only thought it was slightly darker on some material. Not dark sounding in general. I don't know why exactly I heard this. Perhaps it is more transparent, and differences in recordings are more apparent. Let me try to clarify my statements:

I wrote, "The .8 did seem slightly darker on some material, but that may have been break in related (also with new cables, cords) and the increased control and articulation of the lower frequencies which may be why the tonal balance seemed tipped down a bit."

I'm not sure why it sounded slightly dark on some material. I am suggesting that it MAY have been break-in related and/or a result of new cables and cords which may or may not have been effecting the two amps differently. I'm not sure if the amps and cables and cords were fully broken in when I heard them and posted my opinions. It is also possible that the deeper bass extension, and added control of the lower frequencies shifted my perception of tonal balance down slightly on some material. I think of that as slightly darker, though others may call it slightly warmer. I heard this only on some material. At this point, I can't remember if it was digital, analog or which specific tracks they were, but it was a general observation. I heard it on bass heavy material, perhaps Ray Brown, rather than on something like the Vivaldi violins.

I certainly did not refer to this character as a flaw or compromise. And I don't know what Pass' design intention is with the .8 line. I just tried to report what I heard after a rather brief three hour listening session comparing the .5 to the .8. I noted five areas in which I thought the .8 was better than the .5. And my impressions may now be different with more time on and exposure to the components.

I'm sure you would be well rewarded if you save your money for the XS. My audio mentor uses that exact combination of the XS150 and Alexia, and he loves it. He says he really prefers it to his XA100.5. Based on my own experience with my former Pass XA100.5 and my current XA160.5, a difficult load like the Alexia would probably benefit from the greater power/control/current that the latter amp provides. I found this to be the case when I compared those two amps driving my Mini 2s. Now that I have also heard both the 160.5 and the 160.8 with Ian's Alexias, I suggest that the Alexias, with that impedance dip, would benefit with an upgrade from the XA100.5 to either the 100.8, the 160.5 or the 160.8, and they would all be much more affordable than one of the XS models. You might be surprised.