Pass Labs .8 Series!

[rockitman]

I think it is high time Steve starts are Stillpoint's sub forum so members can share their experiences with different component and speakers applications rather than all this data muddled in a thread or two.

Just last night I found some interesting observations of stillpoint's Ultra SS and the LP1 on the Pass XP-25.

 

[MadFloyd]

Put the amps on an amp stand or platform and then place the Stillpoints under the amps and you'll hear clarity and stage definition improvement. You really don't want the Stillpoints directly on the carpet. I had Shunyata Typhons on Ultra 5s on the carpet and was astonished at the improvement when I placed the Typhons on amp stands with the Stillpoints.

Hmm, the only amp stands I have are HRS that are calibrated for the my Doshi amps (more weight on one end). While they are too small to accommodate the Pass amps' feet, they might be big enough for 3 Stillpoints. Not sure if this is a good idea though. Would a piece of wood - like a shelf - work?

 

[MadFloyd]

I feel that a one day comparison by switching back and forth (and turning the amps completely off and on) is not a valid comparison.

It takes the Pass class A amps 2 hours on, then 2 hours of playing music before they even start to sound good, and 48 hours completely on (not in stand by) before they sound at their best. If left on continuously they need music playing through them for 1 hour to sound at their best.

They need to be powered on completely for 5 days to break in IMO.

And using a new power cord is a no no. What is wrong with the stock cord?

You should not have changed anything with your system besides the power amp to hear the differences. We now know nothing about the point 8.

The Stereophile editor ran the same speakers with the XA60.5's, and said they sounded better than any another amp, including big buck Lamm's.

While your suggestion that Pass amps have to be on 4 hours before they sound good strikes me as excessive, your mention of the stock power cord did cause me to try it. It was very enlightening.

The bass is more natural with the stock power cords. It's still thunderously deep and shakes my house causing any post 1970 acoustic bass to sound like it's mic'd and played through a rock concert PA system, but I hear some texture. On the other hand I don't hear any musical info above 8k (or at least that's how I choose to describe the presentation). I actually had to walk up to the speakers to make sure the tweeters were working. Do stock power cords need to break in too?

The .8's are powerful beasts. They can do rock really well. Switching back to my .5's they almost sound thin (although I can hear everything going on musically and it sounds open and airy). The Shunyata power cords help to thicken the sound.

Except for the time I've went back to my .5's I've had the .8's on night and day for a couple weeks now. I don't hear further changes although I'm sure they're still occurring - they're just subtle. I could see this amp being very helpful when someone needs to pressurize a large listening space.

I wonder if I should try switching the Shunyata Alpha Analog power cord in my preamp to an MIT...

 

[Frank750]

Hmm, the only amp stands I have are HRS that are calibrated for the my Doshi amps (more weight on one end). While they are too small to accommodate the Pass amps' feet, they might be big enough for 3 Stillpoints. Not sure if this is a good idea though. Would a piece of wood - like a shelf - work?

Can you borrow something from your dealer? You want something with spikes or at least something with a little isolation. A piece of wood won't really do much for you. Time to invest in amp stands Ian. You have a great system, you want to get everything possible out of it. If you're going to use Stillpoints you won't have to spend a fortune on the stands. Steve Blinn, Adonna, something like that. Steve Blinn will make them specifically for your amps.

 

[Frank750]

While your suggestion that Pass amps have to be on 4 hours before they sound good strikes me as excessive, your mention of the stock power cord did cause me to try it. It was very enlightening.

The bass is more natural with the stock power cords. It's still thunderously deep and shakes my house causing any post 1970 acoustic bass to sound like it's mic'd and played through a rock concert PA system, but I hear some texture. On the other hand I don't hear any musical info above 8k (or at least that's how I choose to describe the presentation). I actually had to walk up to the speakers to make sure the tweeters were working. Do stock power cords need to break in too?

The .8's are powerful beasts. They can do rock really well. Switching back to my .5's they almost sound thin (although I can hear everything going on musically and it sounds open and airy). The Shunyata power cords help to thicken the sound.

Except for the time I've went back to my .5's I've had the .8's on night and day for a couple weeks now. I don't hear further changes although I'm sure they're still occurring - they're just subtle. I could see this amp being very helpful when someone needs to pressurize a large listening space.

I wonder if I should try switching the Shunyata Alpha Analog power cord in my preamp to an MIT...

I think you should be more patient with the Shunyatas. How many hours do you have on them? Unless you have a heavy load, such as a fan or hi wattage lamp connected, there going to take a very long time to break in. There's no way the stock cords will sound better than the Shunyata when properly broken in. You have hundreds and hundreds of testimonials to that fact. I have Anaconda Zitrons on all my Pass gear and there is just no way anyone could listen to my system and tell me it sounds better with the stock cords, not even close. And yes, stock cords need to break in too but not nearly as long.

 

[LL21]

Here's always the challenge when you've got discerning ears and great equipment...you're gonna hear every change. And the challenge now is compounded multiple times over. Lots of new equipment all mixing together at once...and some of it is even still burning in, which means everything is changing even when components don't change. New speakers, new amps, new cords, new isolation...and of course, there is the eventual re-calibration of the exceedingly adjustable Alexias as well.

Here is a wild, wild-a-s guess...forget listening as each individual change is made...it will drive you crazy with all the iterations you could possibly have. If you have the time with the equipment...I would put into place the 'best architecture' of a system you think SHOULD work. Ultra 5s under the 0.8's, isolate everything the best you can for now, add the Shunyata cables, maybe even Alexias with Ultra 5s if you're convinced to try them.

Burn the whole damn system in as is for 5 days 24/7 if you can...and LEAVE IT...grit your teeth while it does. Once Sunday rolls around, see what you like and don't...try to then tweak a bit based on the most negative parts of what you hear. I suspect many of the iterative problems you are experiencing will have sorted themselves out...and [hopefully] leave you with a more distinct, stable sound which will present a set of things you can tackle one a time thru adjusting the speakers, removing one cable, etc.

Then you can go crazy trying to finetune and adjust...I am concerned that you are adjusting on the fly while products you've got in the mix are still burning in, changing, settling in, etc. Even sound after putting them on Ultra 5s will adjust after 24 hours. not by much, but just a teeny bit. Every time I need to readjust my sub...I always find about 24-48 hours later...I need to tweak it back up just 1-2 notches on something...rarely a week later...and then never again until I make another component change.

my two cents. Good luck!!!

 

[rockitman]

Patience is a virtue. One has to expect that new cables, speakers or components will not sound 100% for some time...You have to make a leap of faith based in what you are hearing during a demo period ( and you like it ) is only going to get better, otherwise you may short change yourself in the end by not making the right decision.

 

[Frank750]

Great points Lloyd and even better advice.

 

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for all the replies and advice.

Frank: Steve Blinn is probably a good choice. He built my rack and he was good to deal with (although it took a looooong time).

Lloyd: I hear you. Initially my master plan was to get the Shunyatas, XA160.8's and have my Transparent cables re-tuned and let everything alone for a week. Well it didn't quite go down that way - the Shunyata stuff came a week earlier and the Transparent 2 days earlier. In any case, my audition period for the .8's is coming to a close at the end of this week.

Here's a weird update: no sooner than I say the character of the .8's hasn't changed then I come home from work and find it bright and brittle (stock cable). It got to a point in my test playlist that I couldn't stand it and changed the power cables to the MIT. That helped, but only so much. My wife then came in to hangout and she said "What did you do to the sound?" "Can you fix it?". Even an hour later (with the MIT power cord somewhat settling) it still has a much different tonal balance than before. Could an amp suddenly change that much that quickly during break-in? Curiosity has me wanting to put the Shunyatas back in, but I'm really trying to leave it alone - at least I know my MIT power cord is broken in (at least 2 years old).

 

[microstrip]

MadFloyd,

Did you ever try the Transparent Audio power cables?

 

[MadFloyd]

MadFloyd,

Did you ever try the Transparent Audio power cables?

No, I haven't. You?

 

[Don C]

From the Pass Labs manuals: "Only use power cords, which meet all local safety standards and carry acceptance marks from the local regulatory authority."

Is that statement just a "boiler Plate" safety requirement?

Are there any High End power cords that are UL approved, and does that matter for safe use?

As to the 2 hour (turn on from cold), followed by 2 hours of play before excellent sound. I take into account Phono and/or CD/SACD player, playing music, as they warm up.

I do notice this warm up time (an hour or two), on many recordings, on every system I have heard, that has very high resolution. Even with systems powered up continuously.

 

[LL21]

Thanks for all the replies and advice.

Frank: Steve Blinn is probably a good choice. He built my rack and he was good to deal with (although it took a looooong time).

Lloyd: I hear you. Initially my master plan was to get the Shunyatas, XA160.8's and have my Transparent cables re-tuned and let everything alone for a week. Well it didn't quite go down that way - the Shunyata stuff came a week earlier and the Transparent 2 days earlier. In any case, my audition period for the .8's is coming to a close at the end of this week.

Here's a weird update: no sooner than I say the character of the .8's hasn't changed then I come home from work and find it bright and brittle (stock cable). It got to a point in my test playlist that I couldn't stand it and changed the power cables to the MIT. That helped, but only so much. My wife then came in to hangout and she said "What did you do to the sound?" "Can you fix it?". Even an hour later (with the MIT power cord somewhat settling) it still has a much different tonal balance than before. Could an amp suddenly change that much that quickly during break-in? Curiosity has me wanting to put the Shunyatas back in, but I'm really trying to leave it alone - at least I know my MIT power cord is broken in (at least 2 years old).

Good luck, MadFloyd. Personally, I would still be inclined to stick the Shunyatas in...and burn them straight thru til Fri...and then try to hustle Fri/Fri nite/Sat am to adjust everything. And if you get within spitting distance of where you want to be, beg, plead to keep the 0.8s the rest of the weekend on the basis you are nearly ready to buy them. I gotta imagine if the dealer thinks he's gonna make a sale, he'll give you the weekend and a bit of Monday. fingers crossed!

 

[LL21]

Just saw your post on Audioshark...interesting changes. Perhaps moving in the right direction. I think you should know more as the system continues to settle in...perhaps Friday nite. Good luck.

 

[MadFloyd]

Here's my latest thoughts:

I managed to hold out until Saturday afternoon before tinkering with the actual amps. I'm not sure there's been any big swing in tonal character of either the amp or the Shunyata Alpha HC's. However, before messing with the amps, I tried switching the power cables of my preamp and phono stage to my MIT Z-III's. My thought was: if Shunyata is just a tad dark, perhaps the darkness accumulates with multiple components using their power cords. What I learned was the Shunyata are so much better on bass. My Z-III's produce a lumpy bottom end that I used to think was room response, but now know better.

I switched the power cords back to my MIT Z-III's late Saturday afternoon and while my wife and I were listening to the new Elbow album (which is fantastic, btw - if you like the latest Beck you'll probably like Elbow) I found myself thinking the upper mids/low treble was a little forward sounding and went back to the Shunyatas. We then went and watched a movie, then had dinner - which gave the power cords some time to settle in.

We spent Saturday evening listening to music. The combination of these new Pass amps and the Shunyata power cords, while not the tonal balance I'm striving for, is still beyond impressive. It's like being at a concert. The bass is monstrously rock solid and tight. The soundstage is huge. The meat-on-the-bones is there in spades and the sound is full of presence.

Sunday morning I listened again and was once again frustrated by how buried hi-hats and cymbals are. I found myself not enjoying jazz so I switched to the MIT cables again. After giving it a few hours to adjust I tried listening and it was still a bit dark for my taste. Worse was that I feel that the upper mids were a bit hot. This was confirmed when my wife joined me late Sunday afternoon. She sat down and said "You put the MIT's back in, didn't you? I find it harsh." Her ears are MUCH better than mine. I don't know if the Shunyatas just roll off the aggressive highs or if they truly 'clean them up'. Or maybe the aggressive highs are created by the MIT's. All I know is the difference is not subtle.

So the Shunyatas went back in. My ears were somewhat plugged and I didn't enjoy it - even hours later before going to bed. This morning they were pretty clear and I listened for an hour before going to work. Just random stuff, but I heard deep, huge bass on some electronica that was to die for. Yeah, I would still like less bass and more high frequency extension, but damn if I could ever NOT have this sonic muscle. I feel like I have Maxx's or XLF's.

Today I contacted Wilson and asked them to send me various resistors to boost the tweeter in my Alexias - my way of trying to make these amps work because their prowess is worth fighting for. I do need to go back to my .5's and give them a workout before my audition period expires (I've been given an extension until a week from today) but I have a feeling I'll be hanging on to these and making them work. I recently sold an EMM Labs DAC2X which I wish I still had because it is much leaner and more extended than my Playback Designs DAC - which sounds very warm as does my analog rig. I also know my Pass XP-30 is VERY warm sounding compared to any other preamp I've used so there might be a solution somewhere.

I guess that's it for now.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

 

[Frank750]

You would be the only person I've heard from complaining about rolled off highs from Shunyata power cords. I don't get it.

 

[LL21]

Here's my latest thoughts:

... My thought was: if Shunyata is just a tad dark, perhaps the darkness accumulates with multiple components using their power cords....

... What I learned was the Shunyata are so much better on bass. My Z-III's produce a lumpy bottom end that I used to think was room response, but now know better....

... The combination of these new Pass amps and the Shunyata power cords, while not the tonal balance I'm striving for, is still beyond impressive. It's like being at a concert. The bass is monstrously rock solid and tight. The soundstage is huge. The meat-on-the-bones is there in spades and the sound is full of presence. ...

...my wife joined me late Sunday afternoon. She sat down and said "You put the MIT's back in, didn't you? I find it harsh." Her ears are MUCH better than mine. ...

...Today I contacted Wilson and asked them to send me various resistors to boost the tweeter in my Alexias - my way of trying to make these amps work because their prowess is worth fighting for. ... I also know my Pass XP-30 is VERY warm sounding compared to any other preamp I've used so there might be a solution somewhere.

I guess that's it for now.

All I all, MadFloyd given HOW many changes you have just made to your system...given the fact that somewhere in there, more burn-in may still be required, I think you are actually off to quite a GOOD start. You have essentially built the 'architecture' you thought SHOULD sound best, and there are clearly areas where you seem confident the equipment is better (Shunyata linearity vs MIT) in your system. It even corrected problems I think you originally assumed were the room.

...as you rightfully have concluded for your next step, the Alexias are extremely adjustable to your room, equipment and your ears.

My gut says you may be on your way to confirming that this equipment set up is 'worth fighting for' as you say. Not only technically superior to your earlier equipment...which is always a good place to start...but further that once you have adjusted the Alexias, you may well find a lot of things all into place.

You need to take your time of course, and continue to burn in and adjust the system...please bear in mind as you adjust your Alexias, your equipment may still be burnining too. Nevertheless, hopefully some of that is out of the way. Good luck.

 

[MadFloyd]

You would be the only person I've heard from complaining about rolled off highs from Shunyata power cords. I don't get it.

Maybe it is just me - or a perception I have from reading things here and there over time, including a recent comment from Steve

I didn't really hear it when I put in the Shunyata stuff - I mostly noticing because of the new amp, but it could be mostly the amp and not the power cords.

 

[LL21]

Maybe it is just me - or a perception I have from reading things here and there over time, including a recent comment from Steve

I didn't really hear it when I put in the Shunyata stuff - I mostly noticing because of the new amp, but it could be mostly the amp and not the power cords.

I believe a lot of positives have come out your work so far. They new equipment is showing it has some definite superiority over other equipment...and it is still burning in. And IMHO, the resistors on the alexia are more influential than moving tweeter...I should qualify by saying this is primarily based on my experience with X1.