Paul McGowan Prefers Digital

[spiritofmusic]

I've grown to really love good digital from the dog days of the 80s. Added to possibly not having the best dialled in analog at home I've had more reason to doubt analog than when I've visited well set up tt rigs.
And hearing a supremely optimised SGM/Aqua setup has given me deep respect for well developed digital, to the point I have truly questioned my continued championing of vinyl.

Finally with a few choice changes in my tt setup I feel my analog has really stepped up and is starting to emulate the best analog I've heard and is now no longer in my system the less wholly convincing source.

Of ten audio checklist areas, my Eera cdp ticks more than half of them. But in the areas of mids texture, palpability and timbral accuracy, vinyl rules the roost. And since I believe it's these areas that contribute the most to realism (live unamplified), analog gets the nod, even if in my system cd can image better, extend better at frequency extremes etc.

Mids magic and tonal/timbral accuracy is for me the key reason why analog relaxes cognitive dissonace way better than digital (w due deference to those digital proponents who find clicks and pops to totally take them out of the moment).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

an added note to my comments above;

when you combine a very good performance, with a good analog tape master, and a well done 45 rpm pressing, and higher level vinyl playback......it's not fair for digital to compete with.

45 rpm or direct-to-disc vinyl is a bridge too far. even files with the digital mastering from it's own mic feed. we see this with a few Reference Recordings too where we have the dual mic feed opportunity.

as i sit here and listen to the 88/24 file of the Janaki Trio it is a wonderful recording in every way. really fine. i will come back to it often. but it's not the 45.

 

[NorthStar]

I still prefer analog when in a romantic mood. ... For most of the time ...
When feeling stressed and depressed I prefer digital.

? https://phys.org/news/2016-07-music-vinyl-cds.html

I'm only humoros...

Now I am not: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_analog_and_digital_recording

 

[NorthStar]

????? Banned? Why. He's also an administrator???

You saw that too...administrator.

 

[RogerD]

Surely, there is a degree of relativism with all things audio. However, Paul's assertion that even the best analog sounds colored to him raises eyebrows, and frankly, no one here agrees with it, as far as I can tell...

Well most analog recordings were taped on Ampex machines that were recorded here in the USA and Ampex had a famous bump in the midrange equalization. Why because people love that sound.
I do agree with Paul.
If a person listens to digital mostly and such a AAD or ADD recording is played... you hear the bump. So is it coloration? It certainly isn’t flat. Then you have transformers and certain tubes that add to the mix like the octals used in the Ampex 350 preamps.
Only custom preamp and modified tape machines approach a flatter response...most stock machines added something to the mix...just depended what sound the studio RE preferred.
But again were talking minor here. Digital by design is less colored.

 

[ack]

Thanks for the report MikeL. I am not surprised that in your higher resolution system the 45 is better than digital. It just goes to show that there are limitations with both formats in my system - as expected at this price level. I would say it's the difference between "great" and "fantastic". "Relativism" again. Still, I would love for someone to compare HDCD with the LP. Moreover, this music does not sound colored in any format.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks for the report MikeL. I am not surprised that in your higher resolution system the 45 is better than digital. It just goes to show that there are limitations with both formats in my system - as expected at this price level. I would say it's the difference between "great" and "fantastic". "Relativism" again. Still, I would love for someone to compare HDCD with the LP. Moreover, this music does not sound colored in any format.

i'll bet our systems are closer in information retrieval than you might think. maybe my vinyl has particular advantages with my cartridge/arm/tt. you would likely prefer your presentation as you have so finely crafted your speakers and set-up i'm guessing they are exactly as you want them.

and no doubt the digtial was absolutely neutral and of a piece with the vinyl only differing in degrees of involvement and musical nuance. quite a few degrees. but listening to the digtial, then the vinyl, and then the digital again was no culture shock. it flowed.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, you're ongoing comparisons of digital v vinyl over the years haven't ever varied too much. You've got yr digital sounding excellent and missing v little. But analog always has the edge on flow and texture. And thus it's the same even now.

 

[WeatherB]

I am really enjoying this thread and, If I may, it does sound to me, at least at the top tier of analog and digital, that it is no longer an attempt to compare apples to oranges, but rather comparing a Red Delicious to a Granny Smith.
Just my humble opinion.

I should add that the last reference quality digital set up I listen to was an MSB system at Alma in San Diego over a year ago. Alex went to a lot of trouble to set that up and his work paid off. Truly amazing (even with Tidal streaming).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, you're ongoing comparisons of digital v vinyl over the years haven't ever varied too much. You've got yr digital sounding excellent and missing v little. But analog always has the edge on flow and texture. And thus it's the same even now.

Marc, i can understand why you might say that after what i just wrote, which is why i added the second post about how certain 'uber' vinyl does go to a farther point. but i do feel my perspective on digital verses vinyl has dramatically changed over the last 10 years. digital now get's to a point (with my MSB and likely some others) in natural detail, continuousness and spacial rendering, as well as harmonic complexity, that was not happening 10 years ago. so listenability of digital is at a point where that is no longer even a thought for me. it touches all the bases. it has that presence and energy and no longer has any inherent tastlessness.

yet, in the last 10 years vinyl is better too.

so now my view is i can just listen to music on either format and not worry about it. the vinyl is more satisfying but not singular in being satisfying.

so it's no longer any sort of good-bad kinda thing, but how much good with both.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Mike, it's easy to misrepresent subtle opinons. But the data point of 50 out of 50 visitors at yours voting for analog over digital, and your current report, are very telling.

 

[microstrip]

for the last 2 hours i've been listening to the 45rpm vinyl and digital files of the Janaki Trio album 'Debut' on Yarlung. as i mentioned i have the 45rpm vinyl pressing, as well the Quad dsd download sourced from that tape. before i listened i investigated the recording, and found that there was not only an analog tape source tape for this recording, but also a 176/24 digital master from the same mic feed (...)

Sorry to spoil the fun, but this type of test - using the same mic feed to two recording systems does not prove anything. We only learned that in your particular system the analog feed was preferred.

In order to properly use digital the sound capture should be intrinsically different from what is typically done with analog. BTW, if Yarlung wanted to emulate the analog sound they would have simply digitized the output of the analog master tape. And perhaps some people would prefer it to the digital feed ...

IMHO listening to a high quality rip of the playback of the 45 rpm LP carried in your system would be very educational.

As always, IMHO and YMMV.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry to spoil the fun, but this type of test - using the same mic feed to two recording systems does not prove anything. We only learned that in your particular system the analog feed was preferred.

In order to properly use digital the sound capture should be intrinsically different from what is typically done with analog. BTW, if Yarlung wanted to emulate the analog sound they would have simply digitized the output of the analog master tape. And perhaps some people would prefer it to the digital feed ...

IMHO listening to a high quality rip of the playback of the 45 rpm LP carried in your system would be very educational.

As always, IMHO and YMMV.

totally agree. it's just a data point.

added to the list of other data points. not a test, just what i do anyway. but it does then circle us back around to the issue of systems somehow catering to either digital or analog/vinyl and whether they can be neutral. i think they can. just my opinion. if so then those who agree might attach more weight to this particular data point. those that don't might see it different.

and you are not spoiling the fun. i was quite clear about the relevance of my experience.

it is interesting to compare the Quad dsd to the 88/24 each with different source masters, different but equally enjoyable.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, it's all about being able to switch quickly btwn formats and not suffer friction burns.

I'd love to know how the digital aficionados are optimising computer audio.

My next move is server and dac, and I'd love to know what I need to be worried about. I've sweated the details on my tt and cdp, and don't want server based music to be the poor relation.

 

[PeterA]

what about the vinyl?

in this particular case, in my particular system, to my particular ears, it's not very close. the vinyl is like a different recording. with the vinyl the recording becomes an event. all sorts of higher degrees of things happen all at once. the musical equation and emotional involvement is much higher. this type music has a tension and sense of projection of energy that while present in the 88/24 and Quad dsd, get unleashed with the vinyl. the sense of being in the room, with more air around the instruments and that air having an organic weight is much more evident. harmonics and decay become more like reality.

i'd say the vinyl has more 'swagger'.

that's how my Sunday morning has gone so far........

Thank you very much for this report, Mike. As you know, I only have vinyl, and I do miss the other material that is on my friend Al M's CD, so we often listen to the Beethoven pieces at his house. In my house, the vinyl sounds very much alive. There is lots of recording venue ambiance. The viola's decay hangs in the air. The cello energy is immense. The violin is agree and agressive. The musicians' breathing is quite evident. Yes, it is an event and they are playing in the room. The sense of energy, tension, and presence is palpable. A great companion recording, also on Yarlung, is the "Art of the Violin."

Thanks for spending the morning with this recording and sharing your impressions with us.

 

[Tango]

Mike, it's all about being able to switch quickly btwn formats and not suffer friction burns.

I'd love to know how the digital aficionados are optimising computer audio.

My next move is server and dac, and I'd love to know what I need to be worried about. I've sweated the details on my tt and cdp, and don't want server based music to be the poor relation.

Take it easy Marc. We are still young. We can still wait for digital to advance further still. Another five years Mike will show us that again by then...risk free .

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tang, I like the bit about us being young.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, it's all about being able to switch quickly btwn formats and not suffer friction burns.

I'd love to know how the digital aficionados are optimising computer audio.

My next move is server and dac, and I'd love to know what I need to be worried about. I've sweated the details on my tt and cdp, and don't want server based music to be the poor relation.

i'm not the guy to explain servers and streaming. i use them and enjoy the unfettered access to music they provide. if i bang on them enough i can make them work but mostly i'm typically asking my son or the guys at SGM for help, not providing it. i think you have some experts there locally that can either help or point the way.

i guess the things you need to worry about is mostly is what music access software you want, and do you want to stream. i use Roon and stream with Tidal and am happy. beyond that there is the hardware choices. it can be very modest in cost or more spendy. do your research, and ask local friends what they think.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I meant more what are the server aficionados doing to ensure streamed music is as optimal as possible.

If there is a common theme w server designers, it's all about noise elimination and supression, it appears even more than analog and cdps.

Since this thread seems to have gone down the road of the balance in optimising analog &/or digital, and I've gone as far as I can w my tt and cpd setups, what are the things to be most aware of re a server/dac arrangement?

I do realise this is sufficient a topic for it's own thread.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I meant more what are the server aficionados doing to ensure streamed music is as optimal as possible.

If there is a common theme w server designers, it's all about noise elimination and supression, it appears even more than analog and cdps.

Since this thread seems to have gone down the road of the balance in optimising analog &/or digital, and I've gone as far as I can w my tt and cpd setups, what are the things to be most aware of re a server/dac arrangement?

I do realise this is sufficient a topic for it's own thread.

agree this is for another thread........good topic.