Record Cleaning Machines

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike: how often are you replacing the filter and pads on the AD? I cleaned the filter in lab water at 100 records and replaced the distilled water fluid at that time. I'm only up to about 160 or so cleanings on the AD.

with my first AD which I used without any trouble for a little over 2 years, I experimented with various approaches and came up with my method. I likely cleaned 1500+ records with it. this was right when I had purchased a good sized collection of classical Lps.

--only use a cap full of the specified cleaning agent. this is enough to aid drying and provide for some detergent for cleaning, yet it never foams. any more than a cap full and foaming seems to be a problem from time to time.

--I have a drawer underneath my table upon which the AD sits. I place 70 new Lp sleeves in this drawer. I replace the water and clean the filter when this drawer is empty. when I replace the filter and clean the filter after I drain the dirty water into the sink, I add about a quart of distilled water and slosh it around good and then drain that out so I make sure I get as much foreign particles out of the unit as I can.

---every 3 or 4 times I empty the drawer I also remove the brushes from the chamber and clean them thoroughly underneath the faucet. I then rinse them with distilled water. I also fill the water and do a couple of cycles with clean distilled water and then drain that out. so the whole system gets a good cleaning.

I did buy a new set of brushes and filters but I only replaced them once. and I don't know that I needed to even do that.

 

[Bill Hart]

Helpful Mike, thank-you. Ken, who is from the Hoffman forum and has gone through the tortures of the damned with the AD, has justed posted here. We should give him a welcome. I gather that he has spoken to Robert Stein, but man, he has been on a long road with his.

 

[MylesBAstor]

... the Klaudio has what sounds like 'pink noise on steroids' slightly louder and with a bit of hissing kind of sound

I thought it sounded more like someone being electrocuted or Frankenstein being brought to life

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello Everyone
I am new here after being alerted about this thread by another member.

I am an Audio Desk owner. Here is my story:

Issue #1
I purchased the machine from "The Cable Company" about a year ago. My unit was DOA. The red button to activate the cleaning cycle was inoperable. I requested a replacement model to be shipped since they had my credit card info, and I'd send back the defective unit. I was told no replacement could be sent, and that I had to return the unit for service. OK...I sent it back. They replaced the switch.

Issue #2
Every record I cleaned required manual wiping to remove numerous water drops. I tried everything I could think of, I even took the fan covers off to see if that would allow more air volume. No dice. I once again requested a replacement, and again was told that I had to send it back for repair. After a couple of week, they told me that they had fixed it, and it working as like new. When I received it back, they had placed some of those plastic ties, the ones you use to tie off garbage bags, behind the wipers or "lips" to increase contact. I was told that everything was operating as it should. Their remedy had no effect on the drying, I still had to wipe every record.

Issue #3
I once again complained about the non-drying of the unit and once again requested a replacement unit and was told I had to ship it back as they now had a factory authorized remedy. I sent it back and the fix actually seemed to work.

Issue #4
After receiving the unit back from the factory drying fix, I cleaned about 100 LPs, and then the wheels that grip the record and the brush barrels refused to let go at the end of the cycle. Even after numerous attempts to reset the machine, they would not release. I once again requested a replacement. Their response: I could return it again for service or they would "allow" me a trade in value of $2000 for my LEMON unit towards a new "improved" one.

OK...I guess I was desperate because when this thing works it is wonderful, and I was tired of messing with an obviously defective machine. Although I was angry that I couldn't get a replacement under warranty, I ponied up another $2000 for a "new and improved" one. Now I wish I had just sent to old one back for more repair.

The new one worked great...no water spotting and records clean as you can imagine.

Issue #5
After cleaning about 20 LPs, the records wouldn't rotate. I found that the rubber wheel that grips the LP and at the same time drives the cleaning brushes was spinning on its shaft. Now after only two days of use, the new one has to be sent back for repairs.

So now I have $6000 invested in a $4000 machine (I still think the machine should have been replaced under warranty), and it is once again on its way back across the country for more repair.

I contacted Ultrasystem (the US importer) today, and they apologized for my troubles and promised to get this fixed. I'm hoping for the best.

I wish I had known about the KL unit before I agreed to the new AD unit.

welcome to WBF Ken. sorry to hear about your trials and tribulations. hopefully you have hit bottom and it's only up, up, up from here on.

i know the Klaudio designer, and as far as i know it has only been on the market for approx. 45-60 days; i first tried it in late-July. so it was likely not a choice when you got your 'new' AD.

personally i'm on my 3rd Audio Desk; but my experience is not as one way negative as yours has been.

I owned my first one for 2 and 1/2 years before my motor failed. up till that time it had worked quite well, other than water drops on thinner pressings. then I was given a rebuilt unit at no charge even though my unit was out of warranty. this 'rebuilt unit lasted for almost 2 years before the motor slowed and the record would not turn fast enough. at this point (6 months ago) I was offered a brand new unit like you were at a reduced price. the new one was from the 16th production run and it has been perfect so far over the last 6 months (knock on wood!). i get zero drips now on the new AD.

I have invested deeply in the AD, but I had used my earlier units for 4 years before I spent this additional money and so I don't feel it has been unfair for me. although i would say that you have had a nightmare in comparison.

during the time my second unit was having trouble i did acquire a Loricraft PRC4 Delux too. and i just got the Klaudio. so i have all three right now.

 

[audioblazer]

Some of us are luckier with audio desk reliability. Out of 8 of my buddies that bought , 4 developed problems including mine. My audio desk pump was not working after cleaning about 200-300 LPs in less than 2 months . One unit can't even get started brand new. Another developed problem immediately after receiving units & that is the third times. Of the 4 other units that has no problem yet its not been used. That how unreliable is audio desk in MY EXPERIENCE . However is the best RCM I have used & I do have VPI 17f & loricraft PRC-4. I have never clean as many LP as I have with loricraft or VPI

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Seems like these really high-priced RCM's are almost more trouble than what they are worth. Far be it for me to knock them down, but heck I'd want a higher percentage of reliability than what I've seen is actually happening. I think I'll continue to use my Spin-Clean until I get a VPI or Okki Nokki later this year.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mr. Fremer's viewpoint on the AD <--> Klaudio.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/klaudio-kd-cln-lp200-ultransonic-record-cleaner-reviewed

i know Myles also has a review which is immenent.

 

[mep]

Mr. Fremer's viewpoint on the AD <--> Klaudio.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/klaudio-kd-cln-lp200-ultransonic-record-cleaner-reviewed

i know Myles also has a review which is immenent.

MF just pointed out the differences between the two and didn't really say one was better than the other in the end. Too bad Reiner Glass didn't spend 4 years designing and tweaking his RCM so the bugs would have been worked out before he released it to consumers instead of spending 4 years figuring out powerful to make the ultrasonic cleaning so records weren't damaged. At best, this was an unfinished design before it was released. One of these days I plan on buying an ultrasonic RCM, but I want the MK XV version. I don't want to be a beta tester that pays full price for something that needs constant repair and round-trip shipping to Germany. Some of you got lucky and only had a few breakdowns, others weren't quite so lucky.

 

[Bill Hart]

Mr. Fremer's viewpoint on the AD <--> Klaudio.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/klaudio-kd-cln-lp200-ultransonic-record-cleaner-reviewed

i know Myles also has a review which is immenent.

Thanks. He's missing a word. "My experience first with the Audio Desk and then with the KLAUDiO machine tells me that these folks are . " I wrote to him and gave you and this forum props.
I think he did, in a backhanded way, negative the KL by suggesting that, absent a filter, the grit floating in the suspension is going to bombard records like the Millenium Falcon trying to wend its way through an asteroid belt.
He said nothing about the reliabilty issues of the AD, which, unfortunately, still seem to exist (no schadenfreude here -I bought the AD so I hope it doesn't conk out).
Do you have a little bird tell you these things Mike, or are you just hovering over a hot computer?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks. He's missing a word. "My experience first with the Audio Desk and then with the KLAUDiO machine tells me that these folks are . " I wrote to him and gave you and this forum props.
I think he did, in a backhanded way, negative the KL by suggesting that, absent a filter, the grit floating in the suspension is going to bombard records like the Millenium Falcon trying to wend its way through an asteroid belt.
He said nothing about the reliabilty issues of the AD, which, unfortunately, still seem to exist (no schaduenfraude here I bought the AD so I hope it doesn't conk out).
Do you have a little bird tell you these things Mike, or are you just hovering over a hot computer?

no 'little birds' or 'grassy knoll's' either.

i just happened to be surfing briefly after lunch thru the audioasylum vinyl forum and saw the link and figured our thread needed that info.

obviously i own all three top candidates for best all around RCM (at least as i see things at the moment) so i have no agenda. i see the newest AD machines as fully mature and solid choices. i'm not concerned about the issue of the dirt particles in the water of the Klaudio, a gallon of distilled water is $1.19 at the supermarket near my house. i can change it in seconds. i've been using them side by side for a month and they are both a joy to use and make record cleaning like turning on the light switch. nothing to even think twice about.

clean records?

aren't they all perfectly clean all the damn time?

that is how i see it.

my preference to a very slight degree of more vividness in the sound for the Klaudio is based a few times where i've cleaned records in both and listened. i could see the order changing in the future and it would not surprise me.

 

[Bill Hart]

no 'little birds' or 'grassy knoll's' either.

i just happened to be surfing briefly after lunch thru the audioasylum vinyl forum and saw the link and figured our thread needed that info.

obviously i own all three top candidates for best all around RCM (at least as i see things at the moment) so i have no agenda. i see the newest AD machines as fully mature and solid choices. i'm not concerned about the issue of the dirt particles in the water of the Klaudio, a gallon of distilled water is $1.19 at the supermarket near my house. i can change it in seconds. i've been using them side by side for a month and they are both a joy to use and make record cleaning like turning on the light switch. nothing to even think twice about.

clean records?

aren't they all perfectly clean all the damn time?

that is how i see it.

my preference to a very slight degree of more vividness in the sound for the Klaudio is based a few times where i've cleaned records in both and listened. i could see the order changing in the future and it would not surprise me.

I can hardly argue with your conclusions-you have both machines, I have only the one (and my aged VPI, which is now collecting dust). My comments re particle bombardment were more in response to Mep's observation that Fremer made no conclusions regarding the relative merits of the machines. I'm not suggesting that Fremer's concern is correct, but I read it as a backhanded negative by him. And, I wonder what happened to the missing word? Perhaps in an effort to edit himself, he deleted 'completely out to lunch' and forgot to replace it with something more politic.

 

[rockitman]

I'm a bit concerned about the micro grit he speaks of with the KL. I wonder how many records were cleaned to get the amount of grit he speaks of. Pulverized vinyl would be more grey than black...I guess time will tell. Then again, once a record get's washed, it likely won't need another wash for a long time as long as it is stored and handled properly.

 

[kdbrink]

Hello Everyone
I am new here after being alerted about this thread by another member.

I am an Audio Desk owner. Here is my story:

Issue #1
I purchased the machine from "The Cable Company" about a year ago. My unit was DOA. The red button to activate the cleaning cycle was inoperable. I requested a replacement model to be shipped since they had my credit card info, and I'd send back the defective unit. I was told no replacement could be sent, and that I had to return the unit for service. OK...I sent it back. They replaced the switch.

Issue #2
Every record I cleaned required manual wiping to remove numerous water drops. I tried everything I could think of, I even took the fan covers off to see if that would allow more air volume. No dice. I once again requested a replacement, and again was told that I had to send it back for repair. After a couple of week, they told me that they had fixed it, and it working as like new. When I received it back, they had placed some of those plastic ties, the ones you use to tie off garbage bags, behind the wipers or "lips" to increase contact. I was told that everything was operating as it should. Their remedy had no effect on the drying, I still had to wipe every record.

Issue #3
I once again complained about the non-drying of the unit and once again requested a replacement unit and was told I had to ship it back as they now had a factory authorized remedy. I sent it back and the fix actually seemed to work.

Issue #4
After receiving the unit back from the factory drying fix, I cleaned about 100 LPs, and then the wheels that grip the record and the brush barrels refused to let go at the end of the cycle. Even after numerous attempts to reset the machine, they would not release. I once again requested a replacement. Their response: I could return it again for service or they would "allow" me a trade in value of $2000 for my LEMON unit towards a new "improved" one.

OK...I guess I was desperate because when this thing works it is wonderful, and I was tired of messing with an obviously defective machine. Although I was angry that I couldn't get a replacement under warranty, I ponied up another $2000 for a "new and improved" one. Now I wish I had just sent to old one back for more repair.

The new one worked great...no water spotting and records clean as you can imagine.

Issue #5
After cleaning about 20 LPs, the records wouldn't rotate. I found that the rubber wheel that grips the LP and at the same time drives the cleaning brushes was spinning on its shaft. Now after only two days of use, the new one has to be sent back for repairs.

So now I have $6000 invested in a $4000 machine (I still think the machine should have been replaced under warranty), and it is once again on its way back across the country for more repair.

I contacted Ultrasystem (the US importer) today, and they apologized for my troubles and promised to get this fixed. I'm hoping for the best.

I wish I had known about the KL unit before I agreed to the new AD unit.

I have an update on the situation. I have exchanged many emails with Robert Stein today who assured me that my unit will be taken care of promptly. He also explained how it is the manufacturer who does not offer replacements for the machines in the field, so the distributor has its hands tied.

Also, after reviewing my math, I have $5375 invested in the machine not the $6000 I orginally reported. I had forgotten that I had bought my unit before the prices went up.

 

[asiufy]

I'm a bit concerned about the micro grit he speaks of with the KL. I wonder how many records were cleaned to get the amount of grit he speaks of. Pulverized vinyl would be more grey than black...I guess time will tell. Then again, once a record get's washed, it likely won't need another wash for a long time as long as it is stored and handled properly.

I'm concerned too. I even asked the other day if the KL Audio unit had some kind of filter, as I thought that was a deal breaker. The filter on the AD gets filthy after only a handful of cleanings.


alexandre

 

[hvbias]

The other thing you could do with the KL is add a filter to the end of the draining tube. Experiment with various materials and see which one strains out the most gunk. Like Mike L says distilled water is darn cheap, so even with a filter and changing the water out say after 5 LPs, is equal to $.20 per LP.

 

[rockitman]

I'm concerned too. I even asked the other day if the KL Audio unit had some kind of filter, as I thought that was a deal breaker. The filter on the AD gets filthy after only a handful of cleanings.


alexandre

For me, I don't really have dirty records other than a new or NM condition purchased record from the bay. In addition, I Pre hand scrub every record and dry it off completely with a micro towel prior to insertion into the AD. I change my water every 175 to 200 wash cycles. I keep track with a notebook with tick marks. The no filter approach along with the additional concern of the veracity of the ultrasonic wattage/action ala KL makes me pause.

 

[Bill Hart]

For me, I don't really have dirty records other than a new or NM condition purchased record from the bay. In addition, I Pre hand scrub every record and dry it off completely with a micro towel prior to insertion into the AD. I change my water every 175 to 200 wash cycles. I keep track with a notebook with tick marks. The no filter approach along with the additional concern of the veracity of the ultrasonic wattage/action ala KL makes me pause.

Buy a quality mechanical 'click' counter- lo tech, no digital, no batteries, no hard to read displays, you can get one from Amazon for 15 bucks. The one I bought is chromed metal of some sort and has a little heft, so it doesn't feel like it will break immediately. I have mine nestled into an old rubber 'footer' that keeps it upright, so it sits next to the machine, I don't have to hold it in my hand to use. Everytime i clean, i click. It's like counting heads at the turnstile or something.
The exact one I bought is out of stock but basically looks like this. See above. They also make ones that are mounted in a base, if you don't have an old rubber footer laying around. (What kind of a-phile would you be if you didn't, though?)

 

[rockitman]

View attachment 11581
Buy a quality mechanical 'click' counter- lo tech, no digital, no batteries, no hard to read displays, you can get one from Amazon for 15 bucks. The one I bought is chromed metal of some sort and has a little heft, so it doesn't feel like it will break immediately. I have mine nestled into an old rubber 'footer' that keeps it upright, so it sits next to the machine, I don't have to hold it in my hand to use. Everytime i clean, i click. It's like counting heads at the turnstile or something.
The exact one I bought is out of stock but basically looks like this. See above. They also make ones that are mounted in a base, if you don't have an old rubber footer laying around. (What kind of a-phile would you be if you didn't, though?)

I use clickers to keep cart playback count. Every click (each side) represents 20 minutes on average. I feel that is a realistic count for cart hours. 20 x # of clicks divided by 60.

 

[kdbrink]

I apply a round pre-printed label to the new inner sleeve that I use for each freshly cleaned LP. I can keep count of how many LPs have been cleaned by the empty label sheets.

 

[Klaudio]

Mr. Fremer's viewpoint on the AD <--> Klaudio.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/klaudio-kd-cln-lp200-ultransonic-record-cleaner-reviewed

i know Myles also has a review which is immenent.

We've responded to Analog Planet's review, which I'll paste below. We've also posted testing photos here, which provides one method customers can use to validate the cleaning safety of our product. Hopefully this will minimize some of the speculation.

I work for Klaudio and provided the unit to Michael for the review. Like the Audio Desk, we've spent years perfecting our design allowing for a significantly greater level of ultrasonic cleaning. This is a key part of our patent-pending technology which makes our design safe. When we first started, 200W (actually, less) would absolutely degrade the vinyl. We could find it at the bottom of the stainless steel reservoir after a single cleaning.

Without evidence, the implication our current design is somehow unsafe is simply conjecture. Our analysis of hundreds of LP's and debris in the reservoir has so far found no vinyl degradation whatsoever. Lacking a microscope, customers can test for themselves by selecting a solid, brightly-colored LP and cleaning it repeatedly. We've posted photos of such a test (http://klaudio.com/is-200w-safe-for-my-vinyl). Black vinyl shouldn't be used for testing because it's similar to the color of typical dust particles and leftover manufacturing debris in the reservoir.

In summary, our unit has not simply been slapped-together overnight. We think features such as our soft POM acetal slot lining are evidence of this. We are happy to incorporate any constructive feedback we receive from customers. Owners so far have been extremely satisfied with the cleaning performance of their units and the reliability of parts we use, and we have zero reports of disc damage thus far.

Tim