Retro-Phile: Mono, Anybody?

[JackD201]

Hi Bill,

Jadis, dafos and I have friends over here and their group is called the Single Ended Triode Users of the Philippines, Setup for short. Setup1 is violinist Joseph Esmilla whose hobby is JE Labs. He designs and makes amps and preamps and OB speakers. Joel Villanueva aka Setup2 is one of the best restorers for mechanicals of vintage tables and arms. They are buddies with the guys of Harana (Spanish word for Serenade) who also make triode electronics and horn speakers using mostly vintage Altecs. They are Alnico magnet fetishist. Joey of Harana is known for his custom plinths for popular Idler tables.

Anyway, these guys love mono. In one show they asked me to come in and check out a big Harana horn powered by a 45 amp. Table if I recall correctly was a Rek-o-Kut with a vintage arm and a mono SPU I think. They played mono LPs mostly off Jazz artists I was unfamiliar with. I must say that it was a memorable experience. Phantom images from stereo including two of these same speakers played together seem lightweight and etherial in comparison. Hi-eff mono has a directness of communication that is very different and has an appeal all its own.

 

[jadis]

Anyway, these guys love mono. In one show they asked me to come in and check out a big Harana horn powered by a 45 amp. Table if I recall correctly was a Rek-o-Kut with a vintage arm and a mono SPU I think. They played mono LPs mostly off Jazz artists I was unfamiliar with. I must say that it was a memorable experience. Phantom images from stereo including two of these same speakers played together seem lightweight and etherial in comparison. Hi-eff mono has a directness of communication that is very different and has an appeal all its own.

I heard that demo the boys put up too and indeed, it has an appeal of its own. What was immediately noticeable was the 'presence' of the musical performance. Very vivid, and almost in-your-face. I was sitting about 10 feet away and I wonder what I would hear if it were in a bigger room and I was 15 feet back. Anyway, they usually play old jazz recordings and sometimes vocals. I remember the jazz demo and the musicians were mostly bundled in the middle though there were little spaces between them. That's the essence of 'mono' for me.

Personally I prefer stereo more, even on jazz recordings. I'm a soundstage and imaging guy ever since I started crossing into the high end path so I am used to many different areas producing various sounds across and around the sound field in between and beyond the speakers themselves. A few months ago, I ordered a Tony Mottola 'Spanish Guitar' LP on Command Records, assuming that it was a stereo as I had not encountered prior to that time a mono Command LP. I played it not knowing that it was mono, and on the first minute I still did not notice it was mono but after several minutes it began to dawn on me that the instruments were all squashed in between the speakers and nothing even close to the its outer physical boundaries. Perplexed, I picked up the jacket and could not find the word 'stereo' anywhere. I searched the label and again, no word that it was stereo. The tricky part was that the LP jacket did not state it was a mono, hence, my assumption that it was stereo. I did not enjoy the sound at all. I had to take it out, and order another copy, this time, specifically noting that the word 'stereo' should be on the jacket.

 

[Bill Hart]

Hi Bill,

Jadis, dafos and I have friends over here and their group is called the Single Ended Triode Users of the Philippines, Setup for short. Setup1 is violinist Joseph Esmilla whose hobby is JE Labs. He designs and makes amps and preamps and OB speakers. Joel Villanueva aka Setup2 is one of the best restorers for mechanicals of vintage tables and arms. They are buddies with the guys of Harana (Spanish word for Serenade) who also make triode electronics and horn speakers using mostly vintage Altecs. They are Alnico magnet fetishist. Joey of Harana is known for his custom plinths for popular Idler tables.

Anyway, these guys love mono. In one show they asked me to come in and check out a big Harana horn powered by a 45 amp. Table if I recall correctly was a Rek-o-Kut with a vintage arm and a mono SPU I think. They played mono LPs mostly off Jazz artists I was unfamiliar with. I must say that it was a memorable experience. Phantom images from stereo including two of these same speakers played together seem lightweight and etherial in comparison. Hi-eff mono has a directness of communication that is very different and has an appeal all its own.

Question: How did Manila or the Philippines become such a hot bed for serious audio? And your one friend designs and builds amps and another does vintage TT restoration?
And the third makes triode amps/Altec vintage horns?
I had a hard time convincing Liz, my wife, to move from NYC to Austin, but how long is that plane flight to Manila?
Man sounds like you guys are having fun.
The reason i posed the quesion in the first place (aside from the usual arguments over modern equipment, i wasn't just being provocative, i know there is a serious pursuit of this stuff), is that simpler seems to work better in music reprroduction, and my own experience with modern horn/SET seems to bear that out. So what about going back further?
Not to wax cylinders, but you guys are talking about exactly the kind of set up I'd like to hear, and experiment with.
PS: what is an "OB" speaker?
Thanks much for the reply, Jack.

 

[Bill Hart]

I heard that demo the boys put up too and indeed, it has an appeal of its own. What was immediately noticeable was the 'presence' of the musical performance. Very vivid, and almost in-your-face. I was sitting about 10 feet away and I wonder what I would hear if it were in a bigger room and I was 15 feet back. Anyway, they usually play old jazz recordings and sometimes vocals. I remember the jazz demo and the musicians were mostly bundled in the middle though there were little spaces between them. That's the essence of 'mono' for me.

Personally I prefer stereo more, even on jazz recordings. I'm a soundstage and imaging guy ever since I started crossing into the high end path so I am used to many different areas producing various sounds across and around the sound field in between and beyond the speakers themselves. A few months ago, I ordered a Tony Mottola 'Spanish Guitar' LP on Command Records, assuming that it was a stereo as I had not encountered prior to that time a mono Command LP. I played it not knowing that it was mono, and on the first minute I still did not notice it was mono but after several minutes it began to dawn on me that the instruments were all squashed in between the speakers and nothing even close to the its outer physical boundaries. Perplexed, I picked up the jacket and could not find the word 'stereo' anywhere. I searched the label and again, no word that it was stereo. The tricky part was that the LP jacket did not state it was a mono, hence, my assumption that it was stereo. I did not enjoy the sound at all. I had to take it out, and order another copy, this time, specifically noting that the word 'stereo' should be on the jacket.

Jadis, I don't know too much about you or Jack or how or why you guys got to the Philippines. Did you meet there as a result of common interest in things audio?
I suspect you are right about these systems being dependent on program material. To some degree, so is my current system (perhaps not in the same way, but you know what i mean). Also, in my experience with horns, and associated electronics, they can have a tendancy to almost shout at you. Maybe the idler drive turntable (if that's what the Rek-o-Kut was) which is very lively added to that, plus distance from the horns.
I've become more interested in the overall tonality and naturalness of the system as it reproduces musical instruments and voice, than other attributes. Not saying I'd give up stereo, but getting the character of the instruments/voice right (tone, if you will) and dynamics are things that I think some of these older systems can do well.
I find this whole thing fascinating.
Carl may be right to an extent also- the antiquarian thing is very attractive too, in the same way old cars make my heart sing more than a shiny new appliance.
Thank you for chiming in. And, if I am ever in Manila....
(I've never been quite that far in my travels- Liz has travelled to Japan, my travels have been confined largely to Western Europe, and a jaunt to South America).

 

[JackD201]

Hi Bill,

We were born and raised here. Forumers often mistake us for expats because of our proficiency with the English language. Fluency is pretty common in Metro Manila, Metro Cebu and Metro Davao though. You can walk around anywhere in the country and be understood. Kind of why I like Benelux and Scandinavia, pretty much everyone understands english there too.

We all met through the local forum www.wiredstate.com. Jadis and I are moderators there. The site was originally put up by Francis Sogono to foster the DIY and vintage scene. It eventually ended up expanding to cover all things audio except the automotive scene. We also have just one show a year that distributors use to get together. The fun starts when the show closes for the day on Saturday and each room becomes distinct party zones for participants. Our room hosts House Music and Trance, others do Rock, Jazz, 80's as the drinks flow. We used to have small concerts, one year there was a DJ, but room hopping is always more fun. High end and DIY systems rocking out. No stuffy or stiff auditions like during the day where it's work not play. It's a real trip. You should see how we look when the show reopens on Sunday morning! LOL!!!!!!

One thing that stands out with the pure Mono systems is the big tone. Input/Driver tubes used by the local community are typically Octals. Unlike say the 12BH7 on your ML2 which is more linear in behavior (Did you know that my cousin and I are the exclusive Philippine Lamm distributors? ). I'm pretty sure this contributes a lot to that. Vintage mono styli are also usually spherical ones and that adds to it too. Then there's the less powerful Alnico vs Neodymium magnets in the drivers. The overhang and short excursion does add some warmth as well.

Is Manila a hot bed? I think the US and Europe are much, much hotter. We're just concentrated in a small area and we all know each other so it can look really hot. There is no shortage of talent, that's for sure. Builders are almost all licensed EEs and MEs.

Oh, OB is slang for Open Baffle designs. Most are full range over here but others have augmentation through small horns or bullet tweeters. On horns, Victor Sierra formerly of Sierra-Brooks horns, the guys responsible for those mega ALE driver'ed systems often posted on forums as "You gotta see this!" is Filipino and resides in Cebu. He moved back from Utah and now exports mainly to Korea now. The main man of First Sound is Filipino too. We love our music over here. The saying is that all Filipinos can sing. I think Jadis and I are the only exceptions. Maybe that's why we listen so much. To compensate!

 

[mullard88]

I also can not sing but love music.

 

[Bill Hart]

Hi Bill,

We were born and raised here. Forumers often mistake us for expats because of our proficiency with the English language. Fluency is pretty common in Metro Manila, Metro Cebu and Metro Davao though. You can walk around anywhere in the country and be understood. Kind of why I like Benelux and Scandinavia, pretty much everyone understands english there too.

We all met through the local forum www.wiredstate.com. Jadis and I are moderators there. The site was originally put up by Francis Sogono to foster the DIY and vintage scene. It eventually ended up expanding to cover all things audio except the automotive scene. We also have just one show a year that distributors use to get together. The fun starts when the show closes for the day on Saturday and each room becomes distinct party zones for participants. Our room hosts House Music and Trance, others do Rock, Jazz, 80's as the drinks flow. We used to have small concerts, one year there was a DJ, but room hopping is always more fun. High end and DIY systems rocking out. No stuffy or stiff auditions like during the day where it's work not play. It's a real trip. You should see how we look when the show reopens on Sunday morning! LOL!!!!!!

One thing that stands out with the pure Mono systems is the big tone. Input/Driver tubes used by the local community are typically Octals. Unlike say the 12BH7 on your ML2 which is more linear in behavior (Did you know that my cousin and I are the exclusive Philippine Lamm distributors? ). I'm pretty sure this contributes a lot to that. Vintage mono styli are also usually spherical ones and that adds to it too. Then there's the less powerful Alnico vs Neodymium magnets in the drivers. The overhang and short excursion does add some warmth as well.

Is Manila a hot bed? I think the US and Europe are much, much hotter. We're just concentrated in a small area and we all know each other so it can look really hot. There is no shortage of talent, that's for sure. Builders are almost all licensed EEs and MEs.

Oh, OB is slang for Open Baffle designs. Most are full range over here but others have augmentation through small horns or bullet tweeters. On horns, Victor Sierra formerly of Sierra-Brooks horns, the guys responsible for those mega ALE driver'ed systems often posted on forums as "You gotta see this!" is Filipino and resides in Cebu. He moved back from Utah and now exports mainly to Korea now. The main man of First Sound is Filipino too. We love our music over here. The saying is that all Filipinos can sing. I think Jadis and I are the only exceptions. Maybe that's why we listen so much. To compensate!

Jack, thank you for the background. It seems like you guys enjoy a convergence of east and west- I have long been generally aware of the vintage horn, early tube movement in Japan and the east. But I haven't really been able to hear alot of the highly regarded vintage stuff in a 'home' audio setting. (Similarly fascinated with the Klangfilm equipment) I know that Jonathan Weiss, Jeff Jackson and some others here in the States fool around with old WE amps and drivers. Some of the products you are describing are considered ultimate products in the newly manufactured vintage style, and I had no idea that they originated with Filipino designers or manufacturers. I do know that they banned the singing of "My Way" in the Karaoke bars there a few years ago- that made me laugh.

 

[jadis]

Jadis, I don't know too much about you or Jack or how or why you guys got to the Philippines. Did you meet there as a result of common interest in things audio?
I suspect you are right about these systems being dependent on program material. To some degree, so is my current system (perhaps not in the same way, but you know what i mean). Also, in my experience with horns, and associated electronics, they can have a tendancy to almost shout at you. Maybe the idler drive turntable (if that's what the Rek-o-Kut was) which is very lively added to that, plus distance from the horns.
I've become more interested in the overall tonality and naturalness of the system as it reproduces musical instruments and voice, than other attributes. Not saying I'd give up stereo, but getting the character of the instruments/voice right (tone, if you will) and dynamics are things that I think some of these older systems can do well.
I find this whole thing fascinating.
Carl may be right to an extent also- the antiquarian thing is very attractive too, in the same way old cars make my heart sing more than a shiny new appliance.
Thank you for chiming in. And, if I am ever in Manila....
(I've never been quite that far in my travels- Liz has travelled to Japan, my travels have been confined largely to Western Europe, and a jaunt to South America).

Hi Whart,

As Jack mentioned, we met at a local forum, and before we knew it, we were hopping from house to house listening to many audio systems here in Manila. It's a tight knit metropolis here, and lots of audio buffs are just 1 hour away by car, sometimes less. Good luck on your quest for a mono/set/horn system. If you like good tonal balance, then, I think that's a good direction.

Just to add a bit about the DIY community here, I was a traditional brand lover in audio for a lot of years till a friend told me of a 'record swap meet' in some condo tower nearby. I was surprised to see so much DIY stuffs being demo'ed in many rooms, in fact I never knew audio builders existed here in the city. We're all friends here in the hobby, and the hifi show that Jack mentioned that is held once a year here, is a testimony that different birds of the same audio feather can flock together.

 

[jadis]

We love our music over here. The saying is that all Filipinos can sing. I think Jadis and I are the only exceptions. Maybe that's why we listen so much. To compensate!

Well, I USED to sing. That was because my father in law was such a karaoke fanatic that he virtually forced all members of the family to sing at least one song in his parties. I said I don't sing well. He said he didn't either. I was greatly encouraged. But a few years ago I completely stopped due to lack of stamina.

My Way was banned in K-bars here? LOL

Jack would want to ban Air Supply and Bonnie Tyler songs. LOL

 

[Bill Hart]

Well, I USED to sing. That was because my father in law was such a karaoke fanatic that he virtually forced all members of the family to sing at least one song in his parties. I said I don't sing well. He said he didn't either. I was greatly encouraged. But a few years ago I completely stopped due to lack of stamina.

My Way was banned in K-bars here? LOL

Jack would want to ban Air Supply and Bonnie Tyler songs. LOL

see this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/world/asia/07karaoke.html/

It also mentions that John Denver's 'Country Road' is considered provocative. Go figure!

 

[jadis]

see this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/world/asia/07karaoke.html/

It also mentions that John Denver's 'Country Road' is considered provocative. Go figure!

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. Good thing we only sang at home.

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre,

I'm not surprised. I have a friend who is classically trained and he does not like mono at all because of the loss of spatial information. I tend to value tone color and texture over spatial information, so I suppose I'm predisposed to enjoy it. Also, exaggerated stereo effects really bother me. Like the drummer with the 14' wingspan which is all too common on jazz recordings.

I agree that exaggerated stereo effects are not realistic either. Spreading a drummer across the room is absurd too. But these are not
flaws in stereo production, but bad artistic choices by the mixing engineer. When I was mixing bands in the 90s, a little stereo spread
to give the instruments their natural space is what I went for.

 

[Andre Marc]

Yes, a lone instrument may benefit from mono. I guess I rarely ever put on
recordings with an unaccompanied soloist.

I just get amused when I hear audiophile veterans wax poetic about how mono is more authentic..
or how the Beatles mono mixes are so much punchier. I have the mono mixes and they are dull, dull, dull
in comparison to the stereo. Collectors love to collect...even if they are collecting something inferior.

 

[jazdoc]

I just get amused when I hear audiophile veterans wax poetic about how mono is more authentic..
or how the Beatles mono mixes are so much punchier. I have the mono mixes and they are dull, dull, dull
in comparison to the stereo. Collectors love to collect...even if they are collecting something inferior.

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. But having owned and compared original mono and stereo recordings from the 50's-mid 60's Beatles on Parlophone, Stones on Decca, jazz on Columbia, Contemporary, Atlantic and Blue Note, I can say that the overwhelming majority sound better with the mono mixes. It's not surprising, they were recorded and mixed for mono. Stereo pressings were often afterthoughts. I don't deny that I'm a record collector, but I'm a cheap record collector and mono recordings are typically more expensive. Please believe me when I say that if the stereo recordings sounded better I'd buy 'em!

 

[Andre Marc]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. But having owned and compared original mono and stereo recordings from the 50's-mid 60's Beatles on Parlophone, Stones on Decca, jazz on Columbia, Contemporary, Atlantic and Blue Note, I can say that the overwhelming majority sound better with the mono mixes. It's not surprising, they were recorded and mixed for mono. Stereo pressings were often afterthoughts. I don't deny that I'm a record collector, but I'm a cheap record collector and mono recordings are typically more expensive. Please believe me when I say that if the stereo recordings sounded better I'd buy 'em!

Hey jazdoc:

One thing I must point out, is that the early Beatles records were actually NOT recorded in mono. They were recorded on 4 track multi track then rendered to mono. The reason?
The overwhelming majority of the market in Europe was mono.

Europe was much more conservative at that point technically, only moving to stereo, and adding 8, 16, and 24 track recording capabilities after it hit the States.

I guess it is a matter of taste. I find the stereo mixes much more enjoyable. I also think it is a great exaggeration that the stereo mixes were an after thought.

 

[jazdoc]

Andre,
I do think you'd find Geoffrey Emerick's book interesting. As the Beatles recording engineer, he goes into great detail describing the recording process and emphasizes that the mixes were done for mono with the stereo mixes almost an afterthought.

Edit: I found an Ear Candy interview with Emerick with a couple quotes (http://www.earcandymag.com/geoffemerick-2006.htm)

E.C.: In the early ‘80s, when I found a mono copy of Sgt. Pepper – I felt like I had found ‘buried treasure’, the mix was so unique compared to the stereo version. Until I read your book I had no idea that most of the effort of mixing Sgt. Pepper actually went into the mono mix, that the stereo mix seemed almost an afterthought! Why on earth did they not release the mono vinyl mix when the CD of Pepper was released? Didn’t the first handful of Beatles CD releases use the mono mix?

Geoff: Most of our time and effort went into the mono mixes of both Pepper and Revolver. Sorry, but I don’t know the answer to your questions as I wasn’t involved when the CD versions were released.

E.C.: I also was not aware that the mono mix of Revolver is different. Does it have as many differences as those of the mono/stereo Pepper? Was it the same case –the majority of the effort went into the mono mix?

Geoff: Yes; the mono mixes were the way the record was meant to be heard; the same thing applies to Pepper. The effects tended to be a little bit overdone on the stereo mixes, too. We’d just kind of have fun with the stereo mixes.

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre,
I do think you'd find Geoffrey Emerick's book interesting. As the Beatles recording engineer, he goes into great detail describing the recording process and emphasizes that the mixes were done for mono with the stereo mixes almost an afterthought.

Edit: I found an Ear Candy interview with Emerick with a couple quotes (http://www.earcandymag.com/geoffemerick-2006.htm)

E.C.: In the early ‘80s, when I found a mono copy of Sgt. Pepper – I felt like I had found ‘buried treasure’, the mix was so unique compared to the stereo version. Until I read your book I had no idea that most of the effort of mixing Sgt. Pepper actually went into the mono mix, that the stereo mix seemed almost an afterthought! Why on earth did they not release the mono vinyl mix when the CD of Pepper was released? Didn’t the first handful of Beatles CD releases use the mono mix?

Geoff: Most of our time and effort went into the mono mixes of both Pepper and Revolver. Sorry, but I don’t know the answer to your questions as I wasn’t involved when the CD versions were released.

E.C.: I also was not aware that the mono mix of Revolver is different. Does it have as many differences as those of the mono/stereo Pepper? Was it the same case –the majority of the effort went into the mono mix?

Geoff: Yes; the mono mixes were the way the record was meant to be heard; the same thing applies to Pepper. The effects tended to be a little bit overdone on the stereo mixes, too. We’d just kind of have fun with the stereo mixes.

Hi jazdoc:

Yes, as a Beatles fanatic, I know well Mr. Emerick. One could call him a "5th Beatle"!

I have no doubt he believes what he says, but the Beatles stereo mixes in my opinion are so consistent, and done so well,
even being an afterthought, they are excellent and to me, much more revealing of what is on the multitrack tape. Again,
just my opinion, but I know there are legions of Beatle fans that prefer the stereo.

Now, Revolver and Pepper may be a bit unique in that the mixes were filled with effects and there
were loads of new recording techniques like backwards guitar etc that they had never tried before.

I have seen a thousand bands on stage in clubs, and the sound is nothing like a mono recording from the 60's. You hear
cymbal splashes right and left, and all sorts of ambiance (good and bad) and amps stage right and left.

Arena performances are a different animal. At that point it is just a wash of sound.

 

[jazdoc]

No point in belaboring a matter of taste. I'm glad you are happy with the stereo pressings. These are the differences of opinion that makes our hobby fun and interesting!

 

[Andre Marc]

No point in belaboring a matter of taste. I'm glad you are happy with the stereo pressings. These are the differences of opinion that makes our hobby fun and interesting!

Agree doc!

I guess I just get bit perturbed when some insist that a mono version of a classic recording is more "authentic".

I am not referring to you by the way..you are obviously not an absolutist.

 

[JackD201]

see this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/world/asia/07karaoke.html/

It also mentions that John Denver's 'Country Road' is considered provocative. Go figure!

I only ever go to family KTVs and that's once in a blue moon. My Way is a pretty popular urban legend. I actually believe it! It such an easy song to screw up and it's LONG for a standard.

Article makes us look like the Wild West. Ummm. In the wrong parts of town perhaps just like any place else?