Rockport Lyra

[andromedaaudio]

BTW, coming back, have you come across any 2-speakers (ie not 4-towers) more widely available that you feel are truly full range?

No , but i must say my exposure has been virtually non existent in lets say the past 4- 5 years , no interest really anymore to visit dealers , and no shows these days off course
As soon as i go to Munchen i might have some more new experiences and i ll tell you
Side firing woofers .... i love it .

You have already a nice pair of speakers lloyd , seems to me you d be better off with a custom designed noise isolated room rather then a speaker change .

 

[LL21]

No , but i must say my exposure has been virtually non existent in lets say the past 4- 5 years , no interest really anymore to visit dealers , and no shows these days off course
As soon as i go to Munchen i might have some more new experiences and i ll tell you
Side firing woofers .... i love it .

You have already a nice pair of speakers lloyd , seems to me you d be better off with a custom designed noise isolated room rather then a speaker change .

Hi Andromeda,

Thanks and that is my point. Yes, there are speakers that measure flat to 20hz...but few can keep it up at scale in a large room before things start to go awry. That is why I think so many flagship 4-tower speakers are coming out. YG, Gryphon, Genesis, Wilson, Alsyvox, Magico (QSubs), Magnepan, Tidal, Steinheim, Von Schweikert, etc

As for us, we agree and are happy (and consider ourselves genuinely blessed with our current speakers)...and are working on a "customization" of subs (currently looking at 4 x 18") for sub-32hz. The custom room would be great but in London is never going to work and would eclipse any cost considerations relating to a system itself.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have to say, you are the speaker designer and an industry expert (which I am not). That said, as a consumer...I not only feel that the Focal Grande Utopia, Wilson XLF...and the Rockport Arrakis would (or do in fact) benefit from Subs...but I also note that one of the most renowned owners of the Rockport Arrakis (Arnie)...uses SIX REL 25 subs (dual stacks of 3 subs each) and he has confirmed to me that the improvement is yet another major leap forward in terms of scale, sense of venue, effortlessness.

Here is Arnie's system...note the 6 subs in his room alongside the Rockport Arrakis.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/austin_system.htm



I also think it is not at all a coincidence that designers like David Wilson have also designed the Wilson XVX and WAMM with dual sub towers...and that is NOT just some home theater gimmick. yes, the main towers can run flat to 20hz...nevertheless, they are designing these tower subs as part of their own venture towards all-out-assault state of the art music reproduction.

I m reading the article lloyd , and i ll give my full opinion in due time .
But i think there is a lot more going on regarding listening room construction etc

Article :


Rather than growing complacent with his Magicos, Arnie visited audio shows and the homes of fellow audiophiles to obtain a point of reference, leading him to conclude that the Magico M5s were a little bass shy for his tastes. Eventually he found the speaker of his dreams, the perfect speaker for his room -- a pair of Rockport Arrakis 2s, 900 pounds a side and $225,000 the pair. Installing the massive Arrakis was no easy feat, as his listening room is on the second level, reached via a staircase with a hairpin turn at the top. Even with each speaker breaking down into three separate cabinets, it was a trial of faith and physical exertion just getting the speakers up the stairs. When his floor didn’t collapse, he decided to add subwoofers, and chose the REL Acoustics "six pack": twin towers of three Gibralter-2 subwoofers ($4000 each, so $24,000 total) just to reinforce the bottom end.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Whats his floor made off? wooden floor / wooden beams underneath ? as it sits above a garage .
If this would be the case then that including the thick carpet could just be eating bass energy .
I d put such large bass capable speakers always on concrete ( wooden flooring on top ) for fast tight (high power bass) , a carpet can be added / removed later .
A speaker needs to transduce an electrical signal into an acoustical signal and not into speaker housing / floor/ wall vibrations.
These are all energy losses , this room looks like a room that eats energy ( a lot of absorption )

 

[LL21]

Thanks...I think that makes the point of needing subs for ANY kind of speaker even more imperative. If you are concerned that a not unusual space for an audio room is 'eating energy'...think of what demands such an 'average room' places on any lesser speaker in terms of bass energy. Making the point of massive bass reinforcement that much more important. Again, adding several subs is far more practical than trying to renovate a whole house or add a new addition just for the system...perhaps not in all towns and cities but certainly in cities like Austin, New York or London. The $46,000 he spent on subs is a small fraction of what it would take to build a brand new room of comparable size that also is acoustically treated well.

 

[jfrech]

Just an update. I selected Aston Martin Silver Blonde for the paint color. Delivery is end of April/Early May. System is locked down, so only change will be the Lyra's. Looking forward to this !

 

[LL21]

Just an update. I selected Aston Martin Silver Blonde for the paint color. Delivery is end of April/Early May. System is locked down, so only change will be the Lyra's. Looking forward to this !

Congrats! This is the color in case people were trying to picture it. Stunning!

 

[jfrech]

Congrats! This is the color in case people were trying to picture it. Stunning!

View attachment 76546

I wonder if I want that car instead of the speakers !

 

[andromedaaudio]

Congrats! This is the color in case people were trying to picture it. Stunning!

View attachment 76546

ASTON MARTIN / Refinement / passive Full range speakers






Quantity over quality standalone active subs

 

[LL21]

Hah! I get it...that said, I will admit it. Aston Martin or Ford Bronco, I have yet to hear a 2 channel speaker where I did not prefer them or wish them to be bolstered by standalone subs. I am sure that subs designed for those speakers would be better...but I would take standalone actives over not having any subs with any one of those speakers: having heard most if not all of the big Wilsons, Magicos, Focals, Martin Logans, Wilson Benesch, Rockports, etc...I would still run their full range speakers with a sub going up to 28 - 35hz to drive that sense of venue/hall space.

 

[LL21]

I wonder if I want that car instead of the speakers !

I bet you get a lot more hours on the speakers! And you drink whisky while you enjoy them!

 

[sbo6]

I m reading the article lloyd , and i ll give my full opinion in due time .
But i think there is a lot more going on regarding listening room construction etc

Article :


Rather than growing complacent with his Magicos, Arnie visited audio shows and the homes of fellow audiophiles to obtain a point of reference, leading him to conclude that the Magico M5s were a little bass shy for his tastes. Eventually he found the speaker of his dreams, the perfect speaker for his room -- a pair of Rockport Arrakis 2s, 900 pounds a side and $225,000 the pair. Installing the massive Arrakis was no easy feat, as his listening room is on the second level, reached via a staircase with a hairpin turn at the top. Even with each speaker breaking down into three separate cabinets, it was a trial of faith and physical exertion just getting the speakers up the stairs. When his floor didn’t collapse, he decided to add subwoofers, and chose the REL Acoustics "six pack": twin towers of three Gibralter-2 subwoofers ($4000 each, so $24,000 total) just to reinforce the bottom end.

Actually Arnie had subs long before the Rel 6 pack and before the Arrakis. He had 2 Rel Stadiums 1 at each front wall corner. The newer Rels he now employs are levels better.

 

[howiebrou]

That is why I think so many flagship 4-tower speakers are coming out. YG, Gryphon, Genesis, Wilson, Alsyvox, Magico (QSubs), Magnepan, Tidal, Steinheim, Von Schweikert, etc

Personally I think this is happening partly because they can made serious dollars from relatively little extra production costs.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Personally I think this is happening partly because they can made serious dollars from relatively little extra production costs.

How does a nearly complete speaker redesign; an approximately doubling of drivers; a doubling of cabinetry; R&D regarding new diffraction and radiation patterns; etc.; portend "relatively little extra production costs"?

There are numerous benefits to dividing the drivers in each channel between two cabinets or panels, including reducing the vibration of the midrange and tweeter drivers by the woofers. In some designs (Genesis and Wilson) there is greater flexibility to match the speakers to the room by optimizing separately the placement of the main speakers and the placement of the woofer cabinets.

 

[howiebrou]

How does a nearly complete speaker redesign; an approximately doubling of drivers; a doubling of cabinetry; R&D regarding new diffraction and radiation patterns; etc.; portend "relatively little extra production costs"?

There are numerous benefits to dividing the drivers in each channel between two cabinets or panels, including reducing the vibration of the midrange and tweeter drivers by the woofers. In some designs (Genesis and Wilson) there is greater flexibility to match the speakers to the room by optimizing separately the placement of the main speakers and the placement of the woofer cabinets.

I just feel that lots of manufacturers need to have a bigger flagship model to justify their astronomical pricing. 4 huge boxes seems to be the defacto standard that customers feels meets their expectations vs cost whether or not it is actually am improvement or not. 8 have heard quite a few of these new flagships and not entirely convinced of any improvement. Of course that generalised statement doesn't take into account room suitability etc....

 

[LL21]

I will say, having heard the 4-tower Genesis and 4-tower Tidal...they both presented a scale that a standalone Arrakis could not quite match...let alone the smaller Wilson XLF or Focal Grande Utopia. And while the Arrakis delivered its level of scale with an ease that was shocking...it did not deliver the size/mass/weight of scale of the 4-towers either. And then from the Arrakis, it goes DOWN to the XLF, Focal Grande Utopia.

So I DO think there is a real place for the 4-towers if one really wants that all-out sense of scale and effortlessness. Plus, with the Genesis and Gryphon also designing the amps for their woofer towers, it also adds further potential for something quite special because the amps are designed/tuned expressly for the load.

 

[howiebrou]

I will say, having heard the 4-tower Genesis and 4-tower Tidal...they both presented a scale that a standalone Arrakis could not quite match...let alone the smaller Wilson XLF or Focal Grande Utopia. And while the Arrakis delivered its level of scale with an ease that was shocking...it did not deliver the size/mass/weight of scale of the 4-towers either. And then from the Arrakis, it goes DOWN to the XLF, Focal Grande Utopia.

So I DO think there is a real place for the 4-towers if one really wants that all-out sense of scale and effortlessness. Plus, with the Genesis and Gryphon also designing the amps for their woofer towers, it also adds further potential for something quite special because the amps are designed/tuned expressly for the load.

The Gryphon 4 towers, the Stenheim 4 towers, the Marten 4 towers all sound great, I do agree but are houses getting bigger to accommodate these? There is something to be said for active speakers. May be we will see a renaissance in that and speaker manufacturers can pick up that as well? I know Meridian get a bit of stick in high end circles but there is no denying the fact that not having to find space for amps is a delicious situation.

 

[LL21]

The Gryphon 4 towers, the Stenheim 4 towers, the Marten 4 towers all sound great, I do agree but are houses getting bigger to accommodate these? There is something to be said for active speakers. May be we will see a renaissance in that and speaker manufacturers can pick up that as well? I know Meridian get a bit of stick in high end circles but there is no denying the fact that not having to find space for amps is a delicious situation.

Man, you've heard some pretty serious speakers there! To keep this [sort of] on topic, i wonder how much dynamic scale (obviously one of the key goals of a 4-tower) would be achievable using the Lyras as the base main speakers and then adding Rockport-design subs. ie, is the Lyra able to create as much air movement, scale that is also low-distortion/uncompressed as its equivalent main speakers in these state of the art 4-tower designs?

 

[gds7368]

I will say, having heard the 4-tower Genesis and 4-tower Tidal...they both presented a scale that a standalone Arrakis could not quite match...let alone the smaller Wilson XLF or Focal Grande Utopia. And while the Arrakis delivered its level of scale with an ease that was shocking...it did not deliver the size/mass/weight of scale of the 4-towers either. And then from the Arrakis, it goes DOWN to the XLF, Focal Grande Utopia.

So I DO think there is a real place for the 4-towers if one really wants that all-out sense of scale and effortlessness. Plus, with the Genesis and Gryphon also designing the amps for their woofer towers, it also adds further potential for something quite special because the amps are designed/tuned expressly for the load.

Can you expand on what kinds of music you feel benefit from such a large set of towers? All music? Also, what room size?

Listened very contently last weekend (Billy Nomates, Fleet Foxes, Gorillaz, Rodrigo y Gabriela, Calexico, Telefon Tel Aviv, Giant Sand, Dead Can Dance, Mogwai, Notwist, Django Django) so I'm trying to understand your thoughts better. Maybe I'm in the Matrix and ignorance is bliss?

 

[LL21]

Can you expand on what kinds of music you feel benefit from such a large set of towers? All music? Also, what room size?

Listened very contently last weekend (Billy Nomates, Fleet Foxes, Gorillaz, Rodrigo y Gabriela, Calexico, Telefon Tel Aviv, Giant Sand, Dead Can Dance, Mogwai, Notwist, Django Django) so I'm trying to understand your thoughts better. Maybe I'm in the Matrix and ignorance is bliss?

Hi...I also listen to Gorillaz, Rodrigo y Gabriela (Live in Japan is great), Calexico (again, their live with symphony orchestra album is great), Dead Can Dance, plus a lot of Hans Zimmer soundtracks (Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, both Sherlock Holmes, etc), intimate and large scale orchestral, plus a lot of deep house music, blues, jazz, classical from solo to small ensembles to full-scale orchestra/chorals, even organ (though not much organ), etc.

Overall, I would say on the following, I find benefit with the 4-tower:
- deep house...for obvious reasons with all the electronic bass, synthesizer work
- orchestral + deep synthesizer: sound tracks, but also Vivaldi with a 20-piece ensemble...it is truly thrilling to hear as if 20 individual players are (or almost are) lined up in 2 rows, side by side in a really large room.
but interesting I also find it beneficial on:
- live band music (when Nirvana Unplugged really feels like a live stage, it is thrilling)
- jazz clubs...where the sense of the club space around you because of the bass providing the acoustical venue cues
- blues
- ensemble classical (ie, quartets, etc) where the recording venue is particularly well captured

Now interestingly, I would have guessed that a room of 17.5 x 40 x 11 would share the most benefit from this...and arguably it does. But I STILL found in our earlier room (16 x 30 x 7.5) where the system was firing down the SHORT side not the long side, that the bass made a huge benefit to the overall PALPABILITY.

There is 'rarely' a bass note you actually HEAR from a piece of music with vs without the sub on (the Velodyne has a mute button so easy to test). Yes, when you turn the sub off, there will be [some] musical notes with much reduced/lessened in impact...but that is not where the sub becomes indispensable. For me, it is because you nearly always feel PRESENCE because of the sub, even if the music has stopped but the editor allowed the recording to continue before it fades out...you still feel like you are IN THE VENUE without the instruments playing, but as soon as it fades out to no signal...[snap!] you are back in your listening room.

The other things I would add is that it comes down to personal preference...if what I described is not addictive for some (I am sure it is not for all)...then it is not at all necessary. I just know for me, I would not do without it. Hope that helps.