Ron’s New System

[Folsom]

This is my last audio bucket list item. I want to use the JA100 experience to attempt to triangulate on the power level (52 watts (Absolare SET), 120 watts (MastersounD PSET), 160 watts (NAT Magma Eimac) and circuit type (SET/PSET) and tube type (845, 833, 450TH) which might yield the highest probability of success.

I am not going to be able to close this exploration without trying high power SET or PSET at some point.



The JA100 with KT90s at about 80 watts definitely is not an obvious failure. This realization alone has been very educational and enlightening. There now is no doubt to me that, as almost everybody reports, the Jadis transformers belie the amps' wattage ratings. The KT90s already are adding weight from the lower midrange on down. Maybe EL34s in Jadis might be too much of a good thing?

So, yes, I immediately wonder whether JA200 Mk. II with EL34s might preserve most of the lower midrange on down weight of the JA100, and recapture some resolution and transparency, without losing the midrange "magic." (A lot of ifs there!) Whether that would get me all the way back to the power and control and dynamics and soundstage solidity of the Siegfried II is another big question.

Gideon Schwartz of AudioArts in Manhattan visited me today. He is a long-time Jadis (and FM Acoustics and Goldmund and Zellaton dealer. Gideon is very nice and extremely knowledgeable! He advised me that the JA200 Mk. II would be a "lateral move," meaning, I think, that he does not think I would pick up enough in the way of dynamics to justify the JA200 Mk. II. He recommended his Goldmund solid-state.

But if I insisted on staying with Jadis Gideon recommended a move all the way up to JA500 Mk. II. However JA500 Mk. II is Class AB. If I were going to go 12 tubes per side Class AB I would just stay with the Siegfried IIs.

On the other hand the 300 watt JA500 Mk. IIs might be an excellent compromise if they provide most of the dynamics and soundstage solidity of the Siegfried IIs while adding a good dollop of Jadis midrange and, hopefully, weight from the lower midrange on down (which is what I am hearing loudly and clearly from the JA100s).

Why bother in scaling power with Jadis? You don't listen that loud. Maybe if you were in an actual airport hanger... I mostly see "more of the same" and the dealer is telling you the same thing except on the most expensive option. I have no idea why you think extra power is needed for low level information. You're hunting in the wrong realm ala the next post. The only potential advantage is distortion might be better with the 200 at higher watts but that is unknown since there doesn't seem to be any 100 measurements available.

I don't think this. I was merely asking the question. I don't see how adding more tubes could possibly provide more resolution or more transparency. That would be counterintuitive to me.

However, the VTLs at 12 tubes, are extremely transparent and extremely resolving. They are more resolving and they are more transparent and the JA100 with four output tubes. So the circuit must play a very large role in resulting transparency and in resulting resolution, not just a number of tubes.

Subjectively for me, my system with the VTLs on those drivers is so incredibly transparent and resolving I can't believe it; I don't understand it (with all of the massed tubes in the VTLs and tubes almost everywhere else) and I like all of that resolution and transparency. The new Io is noticeably more transparent and noticeably more resolving than the old Io.

But keeping the circuit constant (Jadis) it's very hard to see how 10 tubes could be more resolving and more transparent than four tubes.



Why are you assuming anyone is steering me away from them? I answered this question previously that I simply have never heard them or any of their brethren, and I have never seen them come for sale used. No other reason at all.

How would you characterize their "weightiness" from the lower midrange to the upper bass compared to the NAT Magma or Wavac 833 or Absolare SET?

In an ideal world I would get each of these amplifiers and we would have a massive group comparison.

Thank you.

How can the VTL with more tubes do that? Easy answer, a shit load more feedback. Have you never played with a feedback adjustment on something like CH or? The theory that part count makes purity of all these things is fucking trash - the only thing close is balanced doubles a circuit which has trade offs. Clearly you're hearing the difference between feedback. The only advantage is tubes still have benefits that solid state does not.

There's two options between the amps.

1. VTL's you try to change everything else in the system to a more warm sound you like without changing them.

2. Jadis you try to change everything else in the system to a more whatever you like about VTL sound without changing the Jadis.

Option 2 makes the most sense. Going insane over non-sense about power differences won't gain you squat, since it has nothing to do with the differences you're hearing already except that the VTL HAS to use more feedback or it would have charcoal plugged into the sockets shortly. I'll reference my other post, start from 0 and revert back to factory power cords first to see what happens, and swap in some very cheap speaker cables and RCA's.

Cheap wire.

Radioshack style non star quad. (natural sound rec)

Custom Mogami low capacitance cables

 

[DasguteOhr]

I don't need bandwith, as the woofer towers cover 200Hz and below. This is the fun part of bi-amping flexibility.

Especially in the bass you need a bandwidth well below 20hz. exsample jadis ja200 20hz-30khz -3db full power ,my el 34 amp 4hz -200khz -3db full power.
You don't need a big name, you need quality output transformers. my opinion

 

[Folsom]

Jadis iron has not a great bandwidth is not good for dynamic.

Based on? The JA 200 measured flat to 10hz by stereophile (not at 100% power, which is a bad way to measure tube amp with low feedback). I don't see the purpose to giving a rats ass about -3db at 20hz. You also have room gain at that level so do you want extra bass?

Most people can live without any 20hz information at all. There's a very small fraction of content in that range.

 

[Folsom]

Why bother in scaling power with Jadis? You don't listen that loud. Maybe if you were in an actual airport hanger... I mostly see "more of the same" and the dealer is telling you the same thing except on the most expensive option. I have no idea why you think extra power is needed for low level information. You're hunting in the wrong realm ala the next post. The only potential advantage is distortion might be better with the 200 at higher watts but that is unknown since there doesn't seem to be any 100 measurements available.



How can the VTL with more tubes do that? Easy answer, a shit load more feedback. Have you never played with a feedback adjustment on something like CH or? The theory that part count makes purity of all these things is fucking trash - the only thing close is balanced doubles a circuit which has trade offs. Clearly you're hearing the difference between feedback. The only advantage is tubes still have benefits that solid state does not.

There's two options between the amps.

1. VTL's you try to change everything else in the system to a more warm sound you like without changing them.

2. Jadis you try to change everything else in the system to a more whatever you like about VTL sound without changing the Jadis.

Option 2 makes the most sense. Going insane over non-sense about power differences won't gain you squat, since it has nothing to do with the differences you're hearing already except that the VTL HAS to use more feedback or it would have charcoal plugged into the sockets shortly. I'll reference my other post, start from 0 and revert back to factory power cords first to see what happens, and swap in some very cheap speaker cables and RCA's.

Cheap wire.

Radioshack style non star quad. (natural sound rec)

Custom Mogami low capacitance cables

I was just reading Keith's comments on Jadis. He mentioned the MKII has sonic advantages. (not related to power)

What MK is the JA100 you're using, Ron?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Based on? The JA 200 measured flat to 10hz by stereophile (not at 100% power, which is a bad way to measure tube amp with low feedback). I don't see the purpose to giving a rats ass about -3db at 20hz. You also have room gain at that level so do you want extra bass?

Most people can live without any 20hz information at all. There's a very small fraction of content in that range.

https://www.jadis-electronics.com/en/ja200-mkii-16.php
read why shuld jadis lying to make a device worse
When i have a bass tower like that, why shouldn't I use it to its full potential and listen to Trentemøller in the full range of frequencies?
I don't understand the logic.
ok bass is only active I thought ls drive for bass sorry

 

[Folsom]

https://www.jadis-electronics.com/en/ja200-mkii-16.php
read why shuld jadis lying to make a device worse
When i have a bass tower like that, why shouldn't I use it to its full potential and listen to Trentemøller in the full range of frequencies?
I don't understand the logic.

-3db at 20hz isn't audible, and you have 3db of room gain, easily, at 20hz. Trentemøller doesn't go below 20hz either. You have paranoia. It's not a super critical range; it's dominated by 2nd harmonics anyways from 8" woofers.

 

[Al M.]

https://www.jadis-electronics.com/en/ja200-mkii-16.php
read why shuld jadis lying to make a device worse
When i have a bass tower like that, why shouldn't I use it to its full potential and listen to Trentemøller in the full range of frequencies?
I don't understand the logic.
ok bass is only active I thought ls drive for bass sorry

Who cares about the bass? Ron has solid-state driven bass towers. Much more important is linearity in the highs, and here many tube amps fall short because of roll-off from the output transformer, resulting in a duller, warmer sound than would be the case with greater linearity.

 

[Folsom]

Who cares about the bass? Ron has solid-state driven bass towers. Much more important is linearity in the highs, and here many tube amps fall short because of roll-off from the output transformer, resulting in a duller, warmer sound than would be the case with greater linearity.

-3db at 20hz where you have 3db or more room gain is like...

You've got a Motorcycle that can do 175mph but you think 180mph will be totally magically different. But every time you ride it you have a tail wind and hit 180mph anyways. But 180mph from no tailwind is the ONLY way to experience it according to certain people.

 

[Argonaut]

Presently the output tubes are Electro Harmonix KT90s.

I am going to try NOS Siemens EL34s.

Whilst you know my thoughts re this particular choice of amplifier , well … you are enjoying the journey Ron which is all good .

Whilst the Siemens ( which I expect were likely manufactured at the RFT facility ) are a step up from the EH’s you will still remain on the warm side of the audio venn diagram … If you are wishing to see whether the Jadis can present with a little more neutrality etc. for want of a better descriptor, before heading down the NOS Telefunken / Mullard EF 3/4 ( not EF1/2 ) rabbit hole , I would recommend taking some Genalex Gold Lion KT77’s for a spin :

or even more interesting imho

Shuguang Black Treasure 6CA7-Z (gold grid)​

 

[bonzo75]

Yeah these are very good too. Never compared to Mullard.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Who cares about the bass? Ron has solid-state driven bass towers. Much more important is linearity in the highs, and here many tube amps fall short because of roll-off from the output transformer, resulting in a duller, warmer sound than would be the case with greater linearity.

It's easy to relieve the load on the tube amp by filtering the stereo signal from the preamplifier below 200 Hz with a suitable coupling capacitor. The amp no longer sees a bass signal.
This means the amp can work cleanly up to the limit in the highs

 

[Folsom]

It's easy to relieve the load on the tube amp by filtering the stereo signal from the preamplifier below 200 Hz with a suitable coupling capacitor. The amp no longer sees a bass signal.
This means the amp can work cleanly up to the limit in the highs

No need for any of that in this case. The preamp can output a separate signal to the sub amps (multiple outputs) or you can run the signal to the sub amps then out to the regular amps. Both work. The capacitor does work well as a simple 1st order but the subamp and fullrange towers already have their respective crossover points so there's no need in this scenario.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I was just reading Keith's comments on Jadis. He mentioned the MKII has sonic advantages. (not related to power)

What MK is the JA100 you're using, Ron?

JA100. There is no Mk. II version of the JA100. From what I can gather the Mk. II versions mainly achieved compatibility with KT150 tubes.

 

[DasguteOhr]

No need for any of that in this case. The preamp can output a separate signal to the sub amps (multiple outputs) or you can run the signal to the sub amps then out to the regular amps. Both work. The capacitor does work well as a simple 1st order but the subamp and fullrange towers already have their respective crossover points so there's no need in this scenario.

you didn't understand what it was about. The signal is only filtered in the xover of the speaker. his jadis gets a full range signal. Removing the bass signal relieves the load on the outtransformer.
I would try a pure tube preamp that can drive 20 meter long cables. write to user Reinhard here (innovative audio). The vtl is more of a ss preamp than a tube preamplifier. Maybe you don't need to experiment with power amplifiers anymore to get sound you want
Exsample

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[Ron Resnick]

I would try a pure tube preamp that can drive 20 meter long cables. write to user Reinhard here (innovative audio).

I don't know if any tube preamp with a tube output stage can drive 20 meter long cables (without a buffer of some sort).

 

[Folsom]

you didn't understand what it was about. The signal is only filtered in the xover of the speaker. his jadis gets a full range signal. Removing the bass signal relieves the load on the outtransformer.
I would try a pure tube preamp that can drive 20 meter long cables. write to user Reinhard here (innovative audio). The vtl is more of a ss preamp than a tube preamplifier. Maybe you don't need to experiment with power amplifiers anymore to get sound you want
Exsample

Innovative Audio Ultrapath Reference TC (6984219589) | Röhren-Vorverstärker | Angebot auf audio-markt.de

Angeboten wird „Ultrapath Reference TC“ von Innovative Audio aus der Kategorie „Röhren-Vorverstärker“ bei audio-markt.de - dem Online-Marktplatz für High-End. Das Inserat mit der Nummer 6984219589 endet am 07.01.2025 um 06:30 Uhr.

www.audio-markt.de

All that the transformer sees is a resistor. It's extremely easy to drive.

 

[morricab]

Based on? The JA 200 measured flat to 10hz by stereophile (not at 100% power, which is a bad way to measure tube amp with low feedback). I don't see the purpose to giving a rats ass about -3db at 20hz. You also have room gain at that level so do you want extra bass?

Most people can live without any 20hz information at all. There's a very small fraction of content in that range.

I think the problem is the high frequency extension and phase shift.

 

[microstrip]

I don't know if any tube preamp with a tube output stage can drive 20 meter long cables (without a buffer of some sort).

The Atmasphere MP1 will do it easily.

 

[Ron Resnick]

EL34s are more musical than KTs. The telefunken dual getters which used to be priced at 1000 euro per pair are the most transparent with cleanest highs but usually the most musical and balanced are Mullards

But are Mullard EL34s in Jadis maybe too much of a "good thing" (too much warmth and maybe "fuzziness")?

 

[tima]

But are Mullard EL34s in Jadis maybe too much of a "good thing" (too much warmth and maybe "fuzziness")?

Proclamations aside, "musical" isn't a useful word to me. If it means "sounds like music" I take that to mean it does not sound like noise which is generic in terms of information value. Otherwise I take it to mean "I like it".

From my experience the EL34 has characteristics of warmth and softness that will vary by amp/preamp implementation. Some people enjoy that type of sound. What "too much warmth" means is up to you. If Mullards have a general tendency, it may be relatively toward the dark.

Have you talked to Gryphon about the sound what you want?