Ron’s New System

[Alrainbow]

Panels are dipole, which also means figure 8 pattern, which means first reflections are not nearly as much of an issue as there is a null to the sides of the speaker.

Rons maybe dipoles but have little to no side wings to effect a larger delay
Mike l has been to hell and back many times so his talk to me is gospel
and where is Marty in this best stage ever to
My small brain
he was played a song with a girl playing flute
With massive percussions all around her on vinyl too
she was stabilized and never moved forward , back and her hight to me was realistic
This kind of perfection is not possible if any room treatments are not used.
he had a I think a resonator at the entrance to his room. When I asked why he looked and and said if you don’t he gets a varied sound at times
That kind of fine details is mike l territory lol.

 

[treitz3]

How is the imaging ? Is it solid or smoky at times
do vocals stay focused with her and other sounds ?
vocals can move slightly by room reflections
Where instruments not as much
does the image have depth ?
Lastly where was her voice from top to bottom
Meaning how tall was she ? I’ve had an 8 foot tall Elvis between my towers lol.

Good lawd bro'......that would take a LONG time to answer. Good question but still....

Tom

 

[Ron Resnick]

How is the imaging ? Is it solid or smoky at times
do vocals stay focused with her and other sounds ?
vocals can move slightly by room reflections
Where instruments not as much
does the image have depth ?
Lastly where was her voice from top to bottom
Meaning how tall was she ? I’ve had an 8 foot tall Elvis between my towers lol.

The panels are further apart now, but I think the center image is still sufficiently focused.

 

[morricab]

Your correct on dispersion but wrong on room treatment

I said ceiling treatment.

 

[treitz3]

Ron, don't think.....know.

Tom

 

[Ron Resnick]

I listened for about seven hours yesterday afternoon/evening.

I think the bass is noticeably better, and it seems subjectively like the room mode problem is totally gone. Surrounding the listening chairs with the AVAAs measurably reduced the amplitude of the modes, not only the reverberation time.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, don't think.....know.

Tom

It is not knowable. It is a matter of subjective opinion.

Someone accustomed to tightly-focused point source. loudspeakers might consider the center image slightly diffuse or excessively large or both.

 

[Another Johnson]

An OCD forum reader/poster was recently whining about an amp and speaker combination he’d read about. He’d never heard it, “but the guy said that it threw horrible anomalies, like a 6’ wide piano.” It was clearly no good.

I pointed out that the soundboard on the piano in my music room (not listening room) is 6’ wide.

He mumbled some other stuff, and then crawled out backwards.

Good speakers can readily hang Elvis’s head at 8’, as though he were a projection like the head of the Wizard of Oz in the Judy Garland movie. You can do the same with most vocal tracks. On stage Elvis was more than 8’ above the listener’s ears in many venues.

 

[bonzo75]

I listened for about seven hours yesterday afternoon/evening.

I think the bass is noticeably better

Great so ties in with what we heard on one brief video

 

[jeff1225]

I listened for about seven hours yesterday afternoon/evening.

I think the bass is noticeably better, and it seems subjectively like the room mode problem is totally gone. Surrounding the listening chairs with the AVAAs measurably reduced the amplitude of the modes, not only the reverberation time.

Well if you listened to 7 hours yesterday, you’ve at least achieved a major goal, a non-fatiguing system.

 

[Alrainbow]

An OCD forum reader/poster was recently whining about an amp and speaker combination he’d read about. He’d never heard it, “but the guy said that it threw horrible anomalies, like a 6’ wide piano.” It was clearly no good.

I pointed out that the soundboard on the piano in my music room (not listening room) is 6’ wide.

He mumbled some other stuff, and then crawled out backwards.

Good speakers can readily hang Elvis’s head at 8’, as though he were a projection like the head of the Wizard of Oz in the Judy Garland movie. You can do the same with most vocal tracks. On stage Elvis was more than 8’ above the listener’s ears in many venues.

I was told some speakers grow in such a way I love it and your description is spot on. vocals are most times to be in the center anyway thanks for the reply

 

[Alrainbow]

I think a goal in moving forward is to make the image solid any less is not correct
Now what we like is objective for sure
I’m not saying it’s a must have but I am saying it’s a way to know things are correct not only point but a major one.
I’ve gone to hell and back to get the image solid when you do like what you did with the bass towers
Is a milestone to hear
keep in mind I’m a panel guy and don’t like point source
Great horns I guess are not so much a point source
is there truth to my statement and question?

 

[cjfrbw]

Makes the argument to go with better sounding lower powered amps even stronger!

Well, like I say, with 'direct drive' I get a good result with 2 watts of 45 tube power on the 75 inch ribbons, but my tubes are generic ebay culls and likely worn at this point. A 2A3 at 3 watts can't be determined to be flawed playback at my usual listening levels. 5 watts (300b) is a feast. My 8 watt single ended Pass diy ancient O2 Sony 2SK60 amp is glory.

Assuming a 250 percent additional power requirement for room volume and an additional 230 percent for passive crossover losses, rounding off to a factor of 6 multiples or so, that would still be 12 to 30 watts basic requirements.

However, the light sabers of the high power audio lobbies are more powerful than my pathetic ears, so thus is the world. It's the strange ground where objectivists and subjectivists meet, for a variety of mixed commercial and religious motives.

 

[morricab]

Well, like I say, with 'direct drive' I get a good result with 2 watts of 45 tube power on the 75 inch ribbons, but my tubes are generic ebay culls and likely worn at this point. A 2A3 at 3 watts can't be determined to be flawed playback at my usual listening levels. 5 watts (300b) is a feast. My 8 watt single ended Pass diy ancient O2 Sony 2SK60 amp is glory.

Assuming a 250 percent additional power requirement for room volume and an additional 230 percent for passive crossover losses, rounding off to a factor of 6 multiples or so, that would still be 12 to 30 watts basic requirements.

However, the light sabers of the high power audio lobbies are more powerful than my pathetic ears, so thus is the world. It's the strange ground where objectivists and subjectivists meet, for a variety of mixed commercial and religious motives.

And here I have been preaching 65 watt PSET monos...silly me for trying to push so much power...

 

[cjfrbw]

"And here I have been preaching 65 watt PSET monos...silly me for trying to push so much power... "
I do subscribe as a matter of opinion to the 'hierarchy of sound quality' prescribed by the ancient mossy, wrinkled audio gurus from the mystic mountains of Tibet, reading from the audio parchments of the ages:

1. Single ended class A single device. Variants could be directly heated (most exotic), indirectly heated, triode, pentode, tetrode, triode strapped pentode or tetrode, or even transistor types these days.
2. Paralleled Single Ended class A, with variants as described above.
3. Single paired push pull class A, could be any of the tube transistor variants
4. Single paired class AB, variants as usual.
5. Multiple device class A, AB etc, usually purely in the interests of power or to cut through the fogs of passive crossovers and complex impedances of possibly kludge insensitive speakers.

Of course, implementation excellence might sometimes blur this arbitrary hierarchy.

It seems that too many sparkers chasing the first watt may lead to interesting results, but not necessarily satisfying results. I guess it concerns the audio curse of 'current sharing' amongst the devices creating the power output.

Also, many audiophiles crave 'X-ray' sound, more defined skeleton than flesh and blood. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but 'tonal audiophiles' will have different preferences and I am in the tonal camp overall.

 

[Ron Resnick]

"And here I have been preaching 65 watt PSET monos...silly me for trying to push so much power... "
I do subscribe as a matter of opinion to the 'hierarchy of sound quality' prescribed by the ancient mossy, wrinkled audio gurus from the mystic mountains of Tibet, reading from the audio parchments of the ages:

1. Single ended class A single device. Variants could be directly heated (most exotic), indirectly heated, triode, pentode, tetrode, triode strapped pentode or tetrode, or even transistor types these days.
2. Paralleled Single Ended class A, with variants as described above.
3. Single paired push pull class A, could be any of the tube transistor variants
4. Single paired class AB, variants as usual.
5. Multiple device class A, AB etc, usually purely in the interests of power or to cut through the fogs of passive crossovers and complex impedances of possibly kludge insensitive speakers.

Do you have any personal experience comparing Jadis JA200 (10 x EL34, Class A, push-pull) versus MastersounD PF100 (4 x 845, Class A, PSET)?

but 'tonal audiophiles' will have different preferences and I am in the tonal camp overall.

Me too!

 

[morricab]

"And here I have been preaching 65 watt PSET monos...silly me for trying to push so much power... "
I do subscribe as a matter of opinion to the 'hierarchy of sound quality' prescribed by the ancient mossy, wrinkled audio gurus from the mystic mountains of Tibet, reading from the audio parchments of the ages:

1. Single ended class A single device. Variants could be directly heated (most exotic), indirectly heated, triode, pentode, tetrode, triode strapped pentode or tetrode, or even transistor types these days.
2. Paralleled Single Ended class A, with variants as described above.
3. Single paired push pull class A, could be any of the tube transistor variants
4. Single paired class AB, variants as usual.
5. Multiple device class A, AB etc, usually purely in the interests of power or to cut through the fogs of passive crossovers and complex impedances of possibly kludge insensitive speakers.

Of course, implementation excellence might sometimes blur this arbitrary hierarchy.

It seems that too many sparkers chasing the first watt may lead to interesting results, but not necessarily satisfying results. I guess it concerns the audio curse of 'current sharing' amongst the devices creating the power output.

Also, many audiophiles crave 'X-ray' sound, more defined skeleton than flesh and blood. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but 'tonal audiophiles' will have different preferences and I am in the tonal camp overall.

I have been to the top of that mountain and communed with the shamen that reside there. One such guru once told me that the first way things are done is often the best way...after that there is the quest for cheaper and smaller...but not necessarily better.

I would put 1 and 2 on more or less equal footing because I have heard PSETs that were better than the single tube variant although I tend to agree with you regarding a very similar design. For example, I actually found the Aries Cerat Diana Integrated (when driven with a high gain preamp...my version had unusually low gain) sounded better to my ears than the nearly same but parallel Diana Forte amp driven with the same preamp (in both cases the Impera Reference). But Diana Forte sounded better than most other amps I have heard.

I did have a nice sounding Push Pull Class A 300 B amp (VAC 30/30 Renaissance MKIII), but it was not at the level of better SETs. Still, I could readily understand why someone would consider it an end game amp with the right speakers.

Have you ever tried a single ended hybrid? I had one once and if it didn't take over 2 hours of playing to fully warm up and "come alive", I might still have it. It got psychedelically good with both transparency and 3d stage...but before that it was "meh". Couldn't leave it on all the time at over 800 watts continuous consumption.

Where would OTL fit in? I still want to try SET OTL... Aries Cerat used to make one...not anymore. Transcendent sound still does and it's cheap...worth a punt.

Finally, check out the new Triode/FET design from Aries Cerat... NAT makes something that on the surface seems similar. Single element amps.

 

[pjwd]

Panels are dipole, which also means figure 8 pattern, which means first reflections are not nearly as much of an issue as there is a null to the sides of the speaker.

I am very familiar with dipoles .. they have a diminishing off axis response as you move from on axis towards baffle plane
In Rons case they are close to wall and would have quite strong reflections

 

[Folsom]

I said it before. Many tube amplifiers don't exhibit the same problems with saturation etc, that can give you a non-linearish sound of "too little power". They also often are not audible when clipping until pushed very hard. It's no surprise 2w (90-92db) is plenty loud enough for many (especially with less than air port hangers). A lot of people barely crack 80db average when listening.

There are plenty of solid states designs that simply need "headroom" configurations of the circuit in order to not exhibit what some listeners would say sounds "non-linear". It isn't a pure wattage calculation. It can be caused by specific frequencies and be related to saturation of an inductor, or ringing in an umbilical cord, etc. Most simply design past the issues instead of addressing them.

Everyone is telling Ron everything all at once. My hopes is that he just remains open to trying different things so he can find what he really likes... and can avoid the paranoia of thinking he NEEDS tons of watts to get it. That's why I'm like, "whoa, if you like the Jadis 100w amps there isn't a need to run towards something else hard and fast." At that point it's a decision of sound flavor, not dynamics, but he's pretty concerned about getting the max.

If I were to put a cap on how low he could go without potentially losing anything noticeable during loud passages of orchestral music, I'd guess 16w. If he just wants girl guitar music 8w could still probably give a small venue sense. Below that you're probably looking at trading some omph for tonality - which I wouldn't even say no to if I liked it a lot, not like you'll lose any bass.

 

[Ron Resnick]

J.R. Boisclair, of WAM Engineering, installs ZYX UNIverse Premium cartridge on Graham Phantom Elite on Brinkmann Balance turntable: