Ron’s New System

[cal3713]

As a point of reference about the effect of power we all heard a noticeable difference in soundstage going from 350 watts to 700 watts on the VTLs (a 3dB difference).

Sorry, the thread is long... how did you double the VTL power? By going to monoblocks?

I got a better soundstage in my amplifiers (DIY First Watt F4s) by going to monoblocks with non-shared power supplies even though I kept the overall system wattage the same. The distortion reduction allowed me to see deeper into the stage as it was produced with greater precision. Perhaps not as relevant an issue for your VTLs as they were likely already full dual mono designs though.

 

[Ron Resnick]

And if it's something you can't hear, who cares? Better to find the amplifier pairing that excels at exactly the things to which you are most sensitive in my mind.

I totally agree with this. But there is a different factor which gnaws at me, which is that I have a lot of visitors and guests through the listening room, and I don't want to have created a super-custom sonic monster which appeals only and idiosyncratically to me.

In other words I do want the system to be competent generally. Otherwise I might just go with Viva Auroras at 22 watts!

 

[morricab]

What is the sonic reason for using this design -- especially if it uses an output transformer anyway?

Its an inherently balanced design (so I guess BAT likes that..) and I think it doesn't have the potential phase splitter issues that a standard PP tube amp can face.

 

[morricab]

Lest we forget a more recent implementation with the Aries Cerat lanus line of pure class A Circlotron / TriodeFet amplification Viz the Geminae .

Price would be limiting there I think...

 

[Ron Resnick]

how did you double the VTL power? By going to monoblocks?

triode/tetrode switching

 

[morricab]

his thread doesn’t have the headroom for that

Not when you chew up all the bandwidth with noise and distortion...

 

[morricab]

I had dinner with Don last night and, reflecting on his last couple of visits, Don thinks that while the system now sounds "like music," he thinks the 80 watt power level is sacrificing some of the expanded soundstage space and air that he heard with the VTLs. With Don's focus on big classical, he said that if it were him, he would aim for a power level of 200 watts to 300 watts.

Don is extremely good at hearing sound-staging and air and space, something of which I have always been critical of myself. Nothing specifically actionable for me in his comment, but it inclines me to consider around 80 wants to be the floor. This would take out of contention Thrax Spartacus 300B and Absolare SET.

It puts back into contention NAT Magma Evo, but I think Kedar said Magma will not have the upper bass to lower midrange warmth and weightiness of Jadis.

Don might be good at hearing soundstaging but his attribution to it through power is misguided. Comparing the power difference between two very different designs and saying the cause of less soundstage expansion is power is...well nonsense.

 

[bonzo75]

That's 80 watts from a different amplifier, no? If so, I just don't see how you know to which factor to attribute the soundstage differences.

When a speaker is underpowered with an amp, it constrains soundstage (sounds flat) and dynamic range. This was also audible on video of Jadis playing Mahler 3 at Ron’s.

When I used NAF 2a3 on Devore, it was extremely open. When I used it on Lansche (same room) it got constrained. Lansche ran best with Jadis (though overall I preferred the NAF Devore). Other more powerful amps in that room, including Jadis, did not add to any element including soundstage on Devore compared to the NAF, because NAF was driving it sufficiently. In fact they took away transparency and nuance though that is not being discussed in this subsegment.

When I compared Airtight 300b and EL34 on Cessaro Wagner, the EL34 opened up the soundstage and dynamic range more on the wagner, though it did not add anything to the 300b on the Devore in the same room (as a sidenote, the Devore was better than the Wagner with both amps, but much better with 300b).

And if it's something you can't hear, who cares? Better to find the amplifier pairing that excels at exactly the things to which you are most sensitive in my mind.

This is wishing that Ron never goes past the 15 musical pieces he listens to. I have hope. At least, the average audiophile is someone who grows along his journey, and if he cannot hear something today, or does not have audition tracks that cover various attributes, it is fine if friends like Don point it out to him. I would have definitely been better off 7 years ago if I knew what I knew today, and some of the things more advanced listeners at that point pointed out to me, I ignored.

*Power/drive

 

[bonzo75]

Do you think the VA200 is warmer or less warm (in Jadis term) than Magma?

It's better than both

 

[morricab]

When a speaker is underpowered with an amp, it constrains soundstage (sounds flat) and dynamic range. This was also audible on video of Jadis playing Mahler 3 at Ron’s.

When I used NAF 2a3 on Devore, it was extremely open. When I used it on Lansche (same room) it got constrained. Lansche ran best with Jadis (though overall I preferred the NAF Devore). Other more powerful amps in that room, including Jadis, did not add to any element including soundstage on Devore compared to the NAF, because NAF was driving it sufficiently. In fact they took away transparency and nuance though that is not being discussed in this subsegment.

When I compared Airtight 300b and EL34 on Cessaro Wagner, the EL34 opened up the soundstage and dynamic range more on the wagner, though it did not add anything to the 300b on the Devore in the same room (as a sidenote, the Devore was better than the Wagner with both amps, but much better with 300b).



This is wishing that Ron never goes past the 15 musical pieces he listens to. I have hope. At least, the average audiophile is someone who grows along his journey, and if he cannot hear something today, or does not have audition tracks that cover various attributes, it is fine if friends like Don point it out to him. I would have definitely been better off 7 years ago if I knew what I knew today, and some of the things more advanced listeners at that point pointed out to me, I ignored.

*Power/drive

From two different amps you can never conclude it is the power difference that is the cause of anything.

 

[bonzo75]

From two different amps you can never conclude it is the power difference that is the cause of anything.

I gave two examples.

Audionote empress, UK based PX4, and PX25 and 211 amps on Universums, Dartzeel 108 on Wilson Alexia compared to Constellation…

Unlike you, Brad, I did not get my listening experience from walking around Munich and reading Cheever.

I have made previous comments it is not the wattage but the drive factor, which is a mix of current and grip and transformer

 

[morricab]

I gave two examples.

Audionote empress, UK based PX4, and PX25 and 211 amps on Universums, Dartzeel 108 on Wilson Alexia compared to Constellation…

Unlike you, Brad, I did not get my listening experience from walking around Munich and reading Cheever.

I have made previous comments it is not the wattage but the drive factor, which is a mix of current and grip and transformer

Unlike you I got experience owning lots of gear and having friends with lots of gear as well. Munich is just for fun. I also got experience being dealer and distributor for KR Audio and Aries Cerat and doing my own shows here in Switzerland. You are a voyeur.

Your examples are again with different amps or the same amp on different speakers and you can't tell what power has to do with anything.

If that is the case then why do you challenge what I said? Power alone doesn't mean anything with regard to how it sounds. You have no idea what you even mean by "drive factor". It's so funny watching someone non-technical flail about trying to sound technical.

 

[bonzo75]

It's so funny watching someone non-technical flail about trying to sound technical.

You mean like you who claims to be a techie and says AS 2000 and Horning turntables are similar design just because you see metal?

People can also read here when you tried to deny it - saves the time.

Which is Better Sound From High Power: Single Tube SET or Parallel Tube SET?

i am sure you can judge speakers on a whole but it is not possible to judge drivers in such disparate set ups without replacing it in the same horn speaker, especially given how close they would be in reality. For example, if there was no magic lacking in one of the systems you would not be...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[bonzo75]

Unlike you I got experience owning lots of gear

Yes we have read your experiences with large panels in small rooms run underpowered with SETs

 

[Ron Resnick]

It's better than both

Thank you.

What does "better" mean in terms of what we are talking about here?

 

[bonzo75]

Thank you.

What does "better" mean in terms of what we are talking about here?

Sorry Ron, I don’t want to mislead the forum by more or less than in terms of weight only, as that incorrectly gives the impression one is lean to the triangulating reader. Neither of these amps is lean.

If one was only good on or two attributes, like highs, or lows, or one genre of music and not the other, I would say so.

Better generally means better on all music, for generic tastes.

 

[morricab]

Yes we have read your experiences with large panels in small rooms run underpowered with SETs

I ran them with high powered amps as well and the SETs sounded better...that's experience that you wouldn't even think to try because you "know" better... LOL!

For the record they were higher powered SETs (30-45 watts).

 

[morricab]

You mean like you who claims to be a techie and says AS 2000 and Horning turntables are similar design just because you see metal?

People can also read here when you tried to deny it - saves the time.

Which is Better Sound From High Power: Single Tube SET or Parallel Tube SET?

i am sure you can judge speakers on a whole but it is not possible to judge drivers in such disparate set ups without replacing it in the same horn speaker, especially given how close they would be in reality. For example, if there was no magic lacking in one of the systems you would not be...

www.whatsbestforum.com

They are philosophically similar...both very high mass, low friction, no suspension, thread drive TTs...certainly a lot more similar than compared to a low mass belt drive, a direct drive or an idler. I never claimed they were exactly the same, you can't deny they are attempting to achieve the goal in a similar way.

 

[bonzo75]

They are philosophically similar...both very high mass, low friction, no suspension, thread drive TTs...certainly a lot more similar than compared to a low mass belt drive, a direct drive or an idler. I never claimed they were exactly the same, you can't deny they are attempting to achieve the goal in a similar way.

yes. grounded bearing Vs air bearing, 50Kg Vs more than 100kg platter, titanium Vs steel, different motors and controller. Very similar. And similar to all non-suspended belts.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Perhaps. But in terms of EL34s 70 watts from JA100 to 115 watts from JA200 is a gain of only about 1.5dB. So I'm not sure how much that really moves the needle on building out the soundstage.

As a point of reference about the effect of power we all heard a noticeable difference in soundstage going from 350 watts to 700 watts on the VTLs (a 3dB difference).

I could use KT120s or even KT150s for higher power in JA200, but KTs are not the right answer if all I care about is a beautiful midrange.

If you want a wonderful midrange, you definitely need to listen to an EL 84 amp. This tube is clearly superior to the EL 34 in terms of resolution and smoothness. I can't say whether it has enough power, so the only thing that helps is to try it out.

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