Ron’s New System

[Ron Resnick]

1) With a .24mV cartridge and single-ended interconnects on the panels the NOS Mullards are too noisy. This experiment just casts an even brighter glow over how quiet are Jim's stock Sovtek tubes.

2) I am surprised to be reporting this, but sonically -- unless the four tubes need to burn in -- I think the Mullards may be too much of a good thing. They sounded gorgeous on "Fields of Gold," but they sounded a bit slow and a bit cloudy on "I've Got the Music in Me," on Black Sabbath, on Elton John Greatest Hits. Piano sounded great tonally on Red Hot Ray Brown Trio, but it sounded a touch slow, I think.

I think it's time to try the Telefunkens in V1 and V2.

3) The Mullards clouded things up enough that at one point I thought to myself that if I kept these tubes where they are in the Io I definitely would not put any absorption on the front wall.

 

[Ron Resnick]

you can (even must) do better than the Sovtec LPS even if it is the stock tube. Yes they are quiet, but so dry and sterile

This is all relative. When I am hearing from the stock Sovteks LPs is liquid and musical compared to what I hear from solid-state.

 

[abeidrov]

1) With a .24mV cartridge and single-ended interconnects on the panels the NOS Mullards are too noisy. This experiment just casts an even brighter glow over how quiet are Jim's stock Sovtek tubes.

2) I am surprised to be reporting this, but sonically -- unless the four tubes need to burn in -- I think the Mullards may be too much of a good thing. They sounded gorgeous on "Fields of Gold," but they sounded a bit slow and a bit cloudy on "I've Got the Music in Me," on Black Sabbath, on Elton John Greatest Hits. Piano sounded great tonally on Red Hot Ray Brown Trio, but it sounded a touch slow, I think.

I think it's time to try the Telefunkens in V1 and V2.

3) The Mullards clouded things up enough that at one point I thought to myself that if I kept these tubes where they are in the Io I definitely would not put any absorption on the front wall.

I bought my Telefunkens from Tubedepot using the “Low Noise” option: https://www.tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-ecc83-12ax7-smooth-plate
and they are much more quiet, than the IO stock tubes I had. Also, replacing 6922 and 6SN7 stock tubes made a huge difference. According to Albert Porter these stock tubes in the IO are just “rubbish“.

 

[Ron Resnick]

they are much more quiet, than the IO stock tubes I had

I appreciate that this is your personal experience, but this experience is no longer representative of today's Io stock tubes versus NOS.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I bought my Telefunkens from Tubedepot using the “Low Noise” option: https://www.tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-ecc83-12ax7-smooth-plate

Thank you. I have numerous tubes from TubeDepot.

The tubes I am using are of very good provenance, and they are also carefully noise-tested. All of these tubes are quiet, except three of them are extremely quiet, and one of them is noisier than the others, and that is the relative noise I am referring to. In any other application all four tubes would be considered extremely quiet.

Tube noise is all relative.

 

[Ron Resnick]

According to Albert Porter these stock tubes in the IO are just “rubbish“.

This is very stale information. Are you aware of how long ago Albert wrote this?

 

[abeidrov]

I appreciate that this is your personal experience, but this experience is no longer representative of today's Io stock tubes versus NOS.

It certainly maybe the case. I bought my Io about 4 years ago. What ECC83 stock tubes are used in your Io? Mine are JJ in the gain stages and TUNG-SOL in the power supply.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It certainly maybe the case. I bought my Io about 4 years ago. What ECC83 stock tubes are used in your Io? Mine are JJ in the gain stages and TUNG-SOL in the power supply.

I thought my stock 12AX7 tubes were JJs, but they actually are Sovtek LPs. I promise you, you wouldn't believe how quiet they are. Don, also, cannot believe how quiet they are. Come on over and hear them!

I don't know what is in my power supplies.

 

[abeidrov]

I also use these beauties in the PS instead of EL34 tubes: https://www.amazon.com/Psvane-KT66GC-Vacuum-Tube-Matched/dp/B09PH5W84D They‘ve made a difference, although they are too big and I can’t close the top panel.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I also use these beauties in the PS instead of EL34 tubes: https://www.amazon.com/Psvane-KT66GC-Vacuum-Tube-Matched/dp/B09PH5W84D They‘ve made a difference, although they are too big and I can’t close the top panel.

Thank you. I am not going to be swapping out the power supply tubes.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Today I remove the Mullards from V1 and V2 and either try Telefunkens or Amperex, or I put back the ultra-quiet Sovteks.

As Marty reminded me, "there is no free lunch."

All I know is that the Mullards are not, for me, an unambiguous sonic improvement (this I was not expecting), and the noise of even noise-tested, low noise tubes, simply is unacceptable compared to the ultra-quiet Sovteks. There are quiet, noise-tested tubes, and then there are the even quieter tubes that one needs for Io V1 and V2.

I appreciate all of the comments, but unless you have an Io, you just don't understand what Io people deal with. The Io is an amazing achievement that I have loved for almost 30 years from a mad scientist who even has improved it over the years, but there is a reason why it is the only (I believe) all-tube 86dB gain phono stage on planet Earth.

 

[abeidrov]

Ron, out of curiosity, do you use RCA or XLR connection from Io to your preamp, and have you compared them? I currently use both and keep switching between the two. Cannot make up my mind about which sounds best. Although I use different makes of cables.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I bought my Telefunkens from Tubedepot using the “Low Noise” option: https://www.tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-ecc83-12ax7-smooth-plate
and they are much more quiet, than the IO stock tubes I had. Also, replacing 6922 and 6SN7 stock tubes made a huge difference. According to Albert Porter these stock tubes in the IO are just “rubbish“.

Best choice for the first gain stage..congrats.
More dynamic and details you can't get more out of the record groove.
Second stage i use valvo red. gives a nice fundamental tone range 150hz -500 hz. voices get more body and fullness..goosebumps

 

[Ron Resnick]

Best choice for the first gain stage..congrats.
More dynamic and details you can't get more out of the record groove.

This is actually why I am skeptical of Telefunkens in V1 and V2. For me, more details does not necessarily increase my emotional engagement (or my suspension of disbelief).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, out of curiosity, do you use RCA or XLR connection from Io to your preamp

XLR, but only because Jim recommends XLR. Left my to own devices I would've used single-ended, since the ribbon panel chain is single-ended to the Jadis.

and have you compared them?

No, but I should. I now wish I had not upset the apple cart with the NOS Mullard effort. Sonic happiness in this hobby can be precarious, and when I achieve it, I should stop futzing!

I currently use both and keep switching between the two. Cannot make up my mind about which sounds best.

Very interesting. Please tell us in detail what you're hearing between the two, what are the sonic pros and cons of each?

 

[abeidrov]

XLR, but only because Jim recommends XLR. Left my to own devices I would've used single-ended, since the ribbon panel chain is single-ended to the Jadis.

No, but I should. I now wish I had not upset the apple cart with the NOS Mullard effort. Sonic happiness in this hobby can be precarious, and when I achieve it, I should stop futzing!


Very interesting. Please tell us in detail what you're hearing between the two, what are the sonic pros and cons of each?

Unfortunately, I don’t have the same make of cables for XLR and RCA, so this is not strictly a fair comparison. I use Gryphon VIP XLR and Kubala Elation RCA. I’ve also tried High Fidelity XLR with the same outcome: RCA sounds softer, less dynamic, a bit rounded and warmer. So, I prefer XLR on classical and most jazz, but with some vocals XLR sounds edgy, so I switch to RCA. Also, XLR has a bigger soundstage. But the difference is not that big, I think I would be happy with both. Interestingly enough, the difference is much smaller with Telefunken tubes compared to the stock ones.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Unfortunately, I don’t have the same make of cables for XLR and RCA, so this is not strictly a fair comparison. I use Gryphon VIP XLR and Kubala Elation RCA.

I think Kubala Elation tends to be on the warm side.

I’ve also tried High Fidelity XLR with the same outcome:

Oh good, so that's a confirmation.

RCA sounds softer, less dynamic, a bit rounded and warmer.

This is consistent with other reports of XLR versus RCA on Io. Thank you!

 

[DasguteOhr]

This is actually why I am skeptical of Telefunkens in V1 and V2. For me, more details does not necessarily increase my emotional engagement (or my suspension of disbelief).

This logic doesn't make sense to me, I would like to get as much information from the LP. Your device has so many amplifier stages where you can trim the sound to your desired sound. On the other hand, I don't understand why 86 dB of amplification is needed. I don't know of any cartridge that has with 66db amplification really disturbing noise. maybe a old audio note io cartridges that have an output voltage below 0.1mv. The higher you get gain the noise get more worse.(signal to noise)

 

[Ron Resnick]

would like to get as much information from the LP.

I understand this high-end audio objective. It just does not happen to be my personal objective.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don't understand why 86 dB of amplification is needed.

The gain is adjustable between zero and 86dB.