Ron’s New System

[DasguteOhr]

Hello Gary,

Candidly, I have no idea what this means.

The preamp is in the middle of the gain stage between the phono stage and the amplifier, so perhaps it is physically located at the heart and soul position of the body. Is the phono stage the feet? Is the amplifier at the head?

Or do we start at the head of the phono stage and let gravity drive the electrons down to the amplifier as the feet?

I cannot understand assigning a greater moral value or level of affection to one portion of the gain chain over another. In other words I don't find myself getting more attached to, or excited about, dB 12 through dB 22 than I do about dB 1 to db 11.

I have never had, say, dB 18 treat me better than, say, dB 47. I've never had dB 72 send me a Christmas card, but dB 34 forgot about me completely.

The dBs, across the chain of components that make them, are all just gain to me.

I had to laugh, very good post. but the important thing is not the db. Modern signal sources already have a high output voltage. You actually don't need more than 6-10db gain from the preamplifier. the important thing is output current from the preamp. The less the tube delivers, the faster it distortion increase under high load, e.g. drivers for several power amps or longer cables with high capacity. When both cases are combined it becomes even more difficult. exsampe tube output preamp
6072/ecc83 = 1mA
Ecc82 = 10mA
6h30 = 30-40mA
Therefore, choose your tube wisely for your preamp output, for your needs.

 

[the sound of Tao]

The year is only 4 days old, but that is the funniest post of the year, by far!

I should add apologies Marty, it wasn’t a crack at Soulution, just the solid state gear recommendation for Ron.

 

[bonzo75]

I should add apologies Marty, it wasn’t a crack at Soulution, just the solid state gear recommendation for Ron.

in other words, you are just trying to do a Ron

 

[the sound of Tao]

in other words, you are just trying to do a Ron

Was just trying to do comedy… yes, I know about the importance of keeping my day job…

 

[the sound of Tao]

Actually in reflection though when it comes to topologies I have become less agnostic through time but balancing that out possibly with having a lot less challenge over everyone’s varying preference for gear and different topologies.

 

[marty]

the important thing is output current from the preamp. The less the tube delivers, the faster it distortion increase under high load, e.g. drivers for several power amps or longer cables with high capacity.

Absolutely correct. This is why I abandoned my ARC preamp many years ago in favor if the VTL 7.5 III. My cable length was 25 ft to the amps, and the mosfet output of the 7.5 III could drive that load easily (as does the Soulution 725).

 

[DasguteOhr]

Absolutely correct. This is why I abandoned my ARC preamp many years ago in favor if the VTL 7.5 III. My cable length was 25 ft to the amps, and the mosfet output of the 7.5 III could drive that load easily (as does the Soulution 725).

What kind of arc preamp was that, if I may ask.

 

[Ron Resnick]

the mosfet output of the 7.5 III could drive that load easily

Yes, my pre-amp output stage is transistors.

What does the Soulution pre-amp give you that the VTL did not?

 

[marty]

What does the Soulution pre-amp give you that the VTL did not?

Not a simple answer. As you know, system building is like making gumbo or kugel. You add a little this and bit of that so in the end it tastes good. It's the totality of the system that matters. Lots of different flavorings can be used. I've always preferred hybrid tube/SS systems. When I moved to Lampizator from the Meitner DX2 DAC, I found that the Lampi/Soulution gumbo tasted better than the Meitner/VTL III gumbo. Make sense? Not too different than what you're wrestling with now by exploring amp and/or tube flavorings, I think.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Not a simple answer. As you know, system building is like making gumbo or kugel. You add a little this and bit of that so in the end it tastes good. It's the totality of the system that matters. Lots of different flavorings can be used. I've always preferred hybrid tube/SS systems. When I moved to Lampizator from the Meitner DX2 DAC, I found that the Lampi/Soulution gumbo tasted better than the Meitner/VTL III gumbo. Make sense? Not too different than what you're wrestling with now by exploring amp and/or tube flavorings, I think.

Eeesh! I have trouble making a sunny-side up egg!

 

[gleeds]

Hello Gary,

Candidly, I have no idea what this means.

The preamp is in the middle of the gain stage between the phono stage and the amplifier, so perhaps it is physically located at the heart and soul position of the body. Is the phono stage the feet? Is the amplifier at the head?

Or do we start at the head of the phono stage and let gravity drive the electrons down to the amplifier as the feet?

I cannot understand assigning a greater moral value or level of affection to one portion of the gain chain over another. In other words I don't find myself getting more attached to, or excited about, dB 12 through dB 22 than I do about dB 1 to db 11.

I have never had, say, dB 18 treat me better than, say, dB 47. I've never had dB 72 send me a Christmas card, but dB 34 forgot about me completely.

The dBs, across the chain of components that make them, are all just gain to me.

Ron, thanks for keeping me on my toes

I learned this truth about pre-amplifiers from my mentor Mike Kay of Lyric HiFi in the 70's. I'm embarrassed to say that I was 16 at the time and we are now nearly 50 years later. In those days reference pre-amplifiers e.g. the ARC SP3-a and Mark Levinson LNP2 had the phono preamp built in, hence my overly broad statement on pre-amplifiers not taking the phono stage into consideration.

Today's end-game phono preamplifiers are outboard components. You are correct in that the phono gain stage has the most challenging job of all devices converting millivolt signals and providing more gain than the line preamplifier and amplifier in the chain.

For those that are strictly digital set-ups I stand by my earlier statement. For dedicated phonophiles like my dear from Ron, absolutely get that first stage right as the priority. Step up transformers are IMO a different conversation which would be worth exploring in a dedicated post if one does not currently exist.

 

[gleeds]

Ron, thanks for keeping me on my toes

I learned this truth about pre-amplifiers from my mentor Mike Kay of Lyric HiFi in the 70's. I'm embarrassed to say that I was 16 at the time and we are now nearly 50 years later. In those days reference pre-amplifiers e.g. the ARC SP3-a and Mark Levinson LNP2 had the phono preamp built in, hence my overly broad statement on pre-amplifiers not taking the phono stage into consideration.

Today's end-game phono preamplifiers are outboard components. You are correct in that the phono gain stage has the most challenging job of all devices converting millivolt signals and providing more gain than the line preamplifier and amplifier in the chain.

For those that are strictly digital set-ups I stand by my earlier statement. For dedicated phonophiles like my dear from Ron, absolutely get that first stage right as the priority. Step up transformers are IMO a different conversation which would be worth exploring in a dedicated post if one does not currently exist.
View attachment 122971

 

[KeithR]

Not a simple answer. As you know, system building is like making gumbo or kugel. You add a little this and bit of that so in the end it tastes good. It's the totality of the system that matters. Lots of different flavorings can be used. I've always preferred hybrid tube/SS systems. When I moved to Lampizator from the Meitner DX2 DAC, I found that the Lampi/Soulution gumbo tasted better than the Meitner/VTL III gumbo. Make sense? Not too different than what you're wrestling with now by exploring amp and/or tube flavorings, I think.

I actually think with tube amps, SS preamps are preferable - but there are very very few good ones. If I had a tube amp, I'd love to try the 720/725 or DartZeel.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I actually think with tube amps, SS preamps are preferable - but

Hi Keith,

Why do you think this is true as a matter of general applicability?

 

[KeithR]

Hi Keith,

Why do you think this is true as a matter of general applicability?

technically speaking, there are no impedance issues and I think a lot of system problems are because of these mismatches (and tube preamp/SS amp is far more common ironically)

subjectively, tube amps to me are the "tube magic" so I don't prefer anything else mucking them up. hence why I loved my Music First with tube amps.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Can you define , your version of “tube Magic “ what is it specifically over an SS amp.


Regards

 

[Argonaut]

technically speaking, there are no impedance issues and I think a lot of system problems are because of these mismatches

Why are you seemingly inferring that impedance mis-matches are an issue with Valve equipment ? Particularly where pre and power are manufactured by the same company who presumably design their pre > power synergy specifically Not to “Muck “ things up !

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, can you share the latest video of your system playing Eva Cassidy’s “Fields of Gold”? I think that we all want to hear what this latest acoustic treatment configuration sounds like.

As requested . . .

 

[Johan K]

As requested . . .

Hi Ron,

For the first time ever, playing your video at full volyme on my Iphone, all the sharp edges are gone, and in my iphone anyway - it sounds very beautiful… To me it feels like you have made a LOT of acoustic improvements with the new acoustic treatments. Cool !

/ Johan

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,

For the first time ever, playing your video at full volyme on my Iphone, all the sharp edges are gone

Thank you. But if the sharp edges are in the recording, we don't want to shave them off.