Ron’s New System

[Al M.]

I completely agree. We’re not talking about the character of a concert hall. We’re talking about the ability of an amplifier to convey accurately what’s on the recording. It sounds to me like the Jadis has a distinct character and it is one that Ron really likes. That’s great if it is what he is looking for to increase the enjoyment of his listening experience.

Peter, as has been reported on your system thread by visitors, including myself, the highs in your system are clearly rolled off. This permeates the reproduction of every recording that you put on, and gives it a distinct character. You have said you decided against a super tweeter for your horn speakers, and I have no problem with you liking your sound which you refer to as "natural".

Yet how do you square that with your criticism of other components imparting a distinct character on a system?

 

[PeterA]

Peter, as has been reported on your system thread by visitors, including myself, the highs in your system are clearly rolled off. This permeates the reproduction of every recording that you put on, and gives it a distinct character. You have said you decided against a super tweeter for your horn speakers, and I have no problem with you liking your sound which you refer to as "natural".

Yet how do you square that with your criticism of other components imparting a distinct character on a system?

You always accuse me of trying to change the subject. We were talking about Ron’s amplifiers and you talk about concert halls. Ron brings up Lamm SET’s and now you’re talking about my horn speakers. I thought this thread is about Ron’s system and two specific amplifier choices for his speakers.

How do I reconcile my comments and opinions about my system? I judge my system against my reference and share my impressions on my thread. I am also reminded by alternative presentations from other systems, some of which sound bright and artificial to me and not like what I hear live in the upper frequencies. I do not hear thin and fatiguing highs from violins, brass and woodwinds at the BSO. Again, we listen, judge, and make our choices.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, that’s not what I wrote. I never said anything about uniqueness and utter neutrality. This is a miss characterization and misunderstanding of my post.

Then I apologize. I thought for sure you were saying that you consider Lamm electronics to be neutral -- meaning that they do not impart a coloration and that they do not homogenize different recordings.

 

[pjwd]

Yet warm and cool are not even necessarily audiophile terms. They easily apply to the sound of venues for unamplified live music as well.

About 30 years ago in The Netherlands I heard the same music (diverse works by Alfred Schnittke) played by the same musicians in two different concert halls. First up was the wood covered chamber music hall of Vredenburg in Utrecht. Very warm, wooden sound, incredible body in the lower midrange. A few days later, the same program with the same musicians in the stone covered hall of De Doelen, Rotterdam. Much brighter, lighter, more "transparent" sound, and really cool in character. Hearing that brutal sonic contrast in unamplified live music was one of the most intense and unforgettable experiences in my life as an audiophile.

Describing a system or component sound as either being on the cool or on the warm side, generally speaking, is highly useful in my view. Reducing everything to the descriptor "natural" seems quite simplistic.

Al, what a great experience. During the commissioning of a hall I have heard the difference various settings of absorbtion and diffusion made to the sound of solo piano .. more subtle than your experience but still quite stark differences considering the modest adjustments.

I have banged on about this before. Concert halls vary in reverb times from 2 sec to close to 1 sec and while a lot of famous halls like Boston have long reverb times, studies of users show that a decent percentage of them prefer the shorter reverb times. I think these results explain a lot about our preferences... hence the set'n'horns vs most else debate. Performers seem to like a less "dry" ( cool) acoustic ... the unkind would say becuase it hides their mistakes
Dipole speakers like Ron's ( at least above 250hz) are the least resonant .. sort of the equivalent of a dry hall .. it will be very interesting to see where he ends up with amps

Cheers
Phil

 

[jeff1225]

Fact? Proof?

Not really.

Many people have complained of the extreme brightness of the Focal made metal dome tweeter in the older generation Wilsons, this is well known. Many have also commented that the Lamm electronics have seemed to "tame" this brightness. These comments have been made by visitors to Dr. Steve's system and people that visited the Lamm system at CES with the MAXX3's.

So fact and proof. Unless you think it's a conspiracy of many people, observing the same thing, without any financial motivation to do so. But you might have some "alternative facts."

 

[Folsom]

IF compression is a characteristic of an amplifier, IMHO it is much more likely to be an issue of source, topology and devices used in the chain and amp rather than an issue related to power rating.

One of the reasons I shifted from VTL MB450 to 50 watt SET in the day is that the audible openness and fluidity of the upper midrange on the SET was clearly superior, placing SET on one channel and VTL on the other channel for comparison and going back and forth between the two. That was an issue of topology and devices, not power rating. SET just 'sounded' more linear than the other.

I have thought for some time that the power obsession is a triumph of commercialization and audio critic priestly anointing more than an actual cause and effect outside of frank and egregious clipping behavior. As said, the 'power cure' is the odd common ground between some objectivists and obsessive subjectivists.

I have had and heard powerful amps, medium power amps, and not so powerful amps. In terms of listening, I have not found that the power rating is related in and of itself to creating desirable listening characteristics (again short of frank clipping behavior). If somebody can hear the deficient 500th watt on those power transient peaks and that explains all issues of dynamic range, my hat is off to them.

You have a better grasp of what's really going on than anyone else posting about it. Everyone seems to be dead wrong on what power sounds like or doesn't sound like when lacking it. I've heard soundstages just as big on tiny watts, same stereo as huge watts. And most of what people hear is hardly ever related to power output. There are so many things going on, most things people hear they just invent reasons for out of thin air to explain it.

If your power is insufficient aside from a random super transient, you'll hear a lack of high frequencies. This is very easy to explain... They're shorter wavelengths and aren't getting enough power between the cycles from the wall socket (50/60hz). With longer wavelengths there is time between the cycles of charging so they may not peak as high but don't totally get nuked. Small changes in bass are inaudible. You literally have to have other clues from high frequencies for small changes in bass to reveal themselves due to slightly insufficient power - if detectable at all. It's REALLY basic physics. Imagine driving over a road with some big tires, huge ones, in an offroad vehicle and you go over a hole in the road. Your tire is so big that you don't even really notice because only a small percentage of the tire went in at all as it bridged the gap. Now imagine you're on a razr scooter and you hit the same hole in the road - it completely engulfs the wheel and the front of the scoot so you crash and burn. There's more to it, but that's the basics of what really happens when you're running out of juice.

 

[MadFloyd]

Many people have complained of the extreme brightness of the Focal made metal dome tweeter in the older generation Wilsons, this is well known. Many have also commented that the Lamm electronics have seemed to "tame" this brightness. These comments have been made by visitors to Dr. Steve's system and people that visited the Lamm system at CES with the MAXX3's.

So fact and proof. Unless you think it's a conspiracy of many people, observing the same thing, without any financial motivation to do so. But you might have some "alternative facts."

It would seem this could be explained - the more treble roll off the less energy to the tweeter. Essentially you feed it less

 

[tima]

Many people have complained of the extreme brightness of the Focal made metal dome tweeter in the older generation Wilsons, this is well known. Many have also commented that the Lamm electronics have seemed to "tame" this brightness. These comments have been made by visitors to Dr. Steve's system and people that visited the Lamm system at CES with the MAXX3's.

So fact and proof. Unless you think it's a conspiracy of many people, observing the same thing, without any financial motivation to do so. But you might have some "alternative facts."

Sounds like hearsay from you. "Many people" say lots of things.

The fact that Lamm electronics can tame the Wilson metal dome tweeter is proof that Lamm electronics are on the warm side of the spectrum.

But you miss the point Jeff or misdirect it, namely the specious reasoning in the above pontification. That a particular tweeter does not sound harsh with a particular manufacturer's line of electronics is questionable. But to cite a single tweeter example as 'proof' the line of electronics sounds 'warm' regardless of speaker, is proof of nothing.

 

[PeterA]

Then I apologize. I thought for sure you were saying that you consider Lamm electronics to be neutral -- meaning that they do not impart a coloration and that they do not homogenize different recordings.

I think we should discuss your system here on your system thread. If you want to know more about what I think of my system and my amplifiers, ask your questions on my thread and I will be happy to respond over there.

 

[PeterA]

Many people have complained of the extreme brightness of the Focal made metal dome tweeter in the older generation Wilsons, this is well known. Many have also commented that the Lamm electronics have seemed to "tame" this brightness. These comments have been made by visitors to Dr. Steve's system and people that visited the Lamm system at CES with the MAXX3's.

So fact and proof. Unless you think it's a conspiracy of many people, observing the same thing, without any financial motivation to do so. But you might have some "alternative facts."

Jeff, I haven’t heard Steve’s system, but you and one other visitor told me the room is extremely damped. I wouldn’t expect to hear a lot of high frequency energy in such a room. I heard similar Wilson’s in Rockitman’s system with pass XA amplifiers. Those tweeters did not sound bright there either but those amplifiers in MadFloyd‘s Magico speakers had lots of natural sounding high frequency energy.

I have heard six different speakers with Lamm SET‘s. None of them sounded rolled off to me. All the various reviews I’ve read say nothing about rolled off high frequencies. I don’t know what qualifies as facts or proof. All of these shared impressions just sound like opinions to me.

 

[Mendel]

There are a pair of NAT Transmitters for sale here in Switzerland for <8k for the pair…something to consider…apparently they sound good but I haven’t heard this model.

The is a pair of NAT Transmitters for sale on Canuck Audiomart for $11K Canadian.

 

[gleeds]

Many people have complained of the extreme brightness of the Focal made metal dome tweeter in the older generation Wilsons, this is well known. Many have also commented that the Lamm electronics have seemed to "tame" this brightness. These comments have been made by visitors to Dr. Steve's system and people that visited the Lamm system at CES with the MAXX3's.

So fact and proof. Unless you think it's a conspiracy of many people, observing the same thing, without any financial motivation to do so. But you might have some "alternative facts."

 

[Mendel]

Glad to hear that the new Reed tonearm (its a beauty!) and EI KT90s have taken your system in the direction you wanted.
In my opinion the EI KT90 is more linear (and less coloured) than any EL34 tube. More powerful and dynamic as well, something your speakers can use. I agree with other posters that having large numbers of push/pull tubes per side reduces purity, so having the more powerful KT90s means less tubes per side for a given power level.
Lots of other places to add warmth (phono cartridge, phono preamp, cables, line stage) if you want to.

 

[Kingrex]

Why Wavac 833. There are other brands.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why Wavac 833. There are other brands.

833 is pretty much Wavac and Audio Music.

Who else?

 

[morricab]

Many people have complained of the extreme brightness of the Focal made metal dome tweeter in the older generation Wilsons, this is well known. Many have also commented that the Lamm electronics have seemed to "tame" this brightness. These comments have been made by visitors to Dr. Steve's system and people that visited the Lamm system at CES with the MAXX3's.

So fact and proof. Unless you think it's a conspiracy of many people, observing the same thing, without any financial motivation to do so. But you might have some "alternative facts."

I actually thought the best sounding Wilson was the original X1 in various series. It was also the only one that was truly SET friendly.

 

[108CY]

Dear Mik,

Thank you for your post, and thank you very kindly for your offer to help! I really appreciate it!

I am absolutely loving the 5T. What it does for vocals – my main musical genre interest – is just magic.

I won't hesitate to contact you privately if I have questions.

What cartridges are you finding ideal on the 5T?

Thank you, again!

Dear Ron

You are most welcome, I will message you in private regarding the cartridges I have tried with the 5T there have been many some of which have been quite wonderful. I will add for the past few days to great effect with the Jan Allaerts MC2 Formula One most certainly an interesting combination.

Wishing you many hours of musical joy with the 5T

Kind Regards

Mik

​

 

[cjfrbw]

I had no thorny audiophiles who didn't like my active crossover Wavac system in the day with the Apogee Stage speakers.

Wavacs have that A2 system for handling the grid around low bias, mediated by transformers, which may have something to do with the sound, all transformer coupled. Transformers store and release energy differently than direct or capacitor coupled.

I have been listening to the Wavacs now in cool weather for a couple of weeks, (albeit the baby ones, not the 833 monsters), after over nine months of wonderful listening with the Pass DIY single ended Sony 2SK60 VFET on the 75 inch ribbons.

I think the Wavacs hearken back to the 'tubes 'n transformers' sound that some Japanese audiophiles from the 90's treasured. Organic, lit up, and evocative.

I think it is 'alpha wave' sound. It might seem tilted down at first, but relaxes you so that your portals of perception are opened up wide. Then, nice stuff happens with detail, space and tone. It is difficult to walk away from.

They also tend create the (delusion) that you know what the musicians intended better. I don't know what that quality is, or if it is real, but it is nice.

It's more evocative and dreamy, as said, than excitatory. I suppose there are audiophiles that might not dig that.

I think I would choose the 805 model with the optional added power chassis @ nominal 50 watts. I have never heard them, but they wouldn't be the fearful monster chassis you see in the huge transmitting tubes and would probably be well enough power. I do find even the smaller ones kind of scary for some reason, though they have been very reliable.

 

[tima]

Yes the term natural is in a sense simplistic

Too simple for those requiring lists and data points. Scientists, fleece-bearers, you know ...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Dear Ron

You are most welcome, I will message you in private regarding the cartridges I have tried with the 5T there have been many some of which have been quite wonderful. I will add for the past few days to great effect with the Jan Allaerts MC2 Formula One most certainly an interesting combination.

Wishing you many hours of musical joy with the 5T

Kind Regards

Mik

​

Thank you very much, Mik!