Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
I've seen you advert on ebay and audiogon for the Taiko Tana/Herzan TS-140. At 3.3 inches tall (?) and the Io Eclipse at 5.5 inches height, that's roughly 9 inches plus I assume you'll want some clearance (what, 6-9 inches ?) above the unit for heat dissipation of all those tubes. However many power supplies you have also have roughly the same requirement. So needed rack space per unit you isolate is roughly 15"-18" height ?
- What is the stand into which the Io and platform do not fit?
- Have you considered using a different stand that can accommodate both phono stage and platform?
- Why don't you want to put the Io on top of your stand?
- Do you have alternatives for isolating your Io?
- What does Jim White suggest for the Io?
- Perhaps it can but the Taiko Tana/Herzan TS-140 does not look suitable for going directly on the floor; would you put it on anything?
- Do you have a reason for looking at CMS and HRS?
I will be using two Vintage Audio Specialties Nothing Racks. Each one weighs something like 700 pounds. They match the Vintage Audio Specialities American Sound AS-2000 turntable.
In my equipment room configuration, the VTL line stage has to be on the right side which is closest to the adjacent listening room. I also want the Io control unit right below the turntable. From those mandates the necessary positions of all of the components follow. The Io is three boxes and the VTL is two boxes.
I think the current Io Eclipse comes OEM with HRS Nimbus-type footers.
Jim doesn't think the Io needs any other vibration isolation, but he thinks the Herzan could do no harm.
CMS and HRS are two of the most highly regarded and scientifically developed passive isolation solutions.
I believe in the vibration reducing efficacy of the Herzan. I don't think anyone could watch those in vitro fertilization videos and not be impressed by active isolation.
I think many people have concluded that active isolation should not be considered for a turntable unless it is 1) suspension-less, and 2) not very heavy. Even then, many of us have concluded that the self-noise and self-vibration of a turntable renders active isolation ill-advised for any turntable.
However, I think a component festooned with tubes is an excellent candidate for active isolation.
For the VTL amps I would put the platforms directly on the floor, which is engineered wood glued onto concrete slab.
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WFIW, I have tried Zerovibe, which is basically Herzan, under my turntable and line stage. Ignoring obvious differences between modified Tana and nude Herzan, sonic “effects” in my case were identical but under the preamp they were a bit lower in intensity.
Thank you for the information about ZeroVibe, I was not aware, that Kuzma is offering antibribation platforms.
Zerovibe 6050P active platform- Switzerland - Kuzma Professional Turntables, Tonearms and Accessories
Professional Turntables, Tonearms and Accessories.
www.kuzma.si
depends on the floor. a solid concrete floor (or wood veneer glued to concrete) is the ideal spot for active isolation. like this.....
i can turn the decoupling on and off and the soundstage collapses noticeably. there is also the added precision of detail and nuance. things like piano have a life and textural nuance otherwise unreachable. zero tonal shift or dryness, in fact, the opposite; things have greater ease, timbral rightness, and tonal shading.
some footers expand the soundstage. likely the Tana does that to some degree but my system already is a champ in that category. i don't need more space or scale to recordings.
and the big darts have their own internal suspension for the power supply. no matter they love 'Tana' active.
will all amps react in that same way? might some be voiced for real world platforms? no idea.
2 times i've had friends come over (the amps weigh 160 pounds each) and go through an A/B comparison by listening with the amps on the floor, on stands and on the Tana. both times it was a big thumbs up with the Tana. it was a considerable investment so i was skeptical. no more.
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Thank you very much for telling and showing us, Marcus!
Wow! Kuzma selling the product is a huge endorsement for active isolation under suspension-less turntables that are not very heavy!
What do you use for a phono stage?
Have you tried the Zerovibe underneath the phono stage?
Please tell us the sonic effects you hear from turning active isolation on and off -- for both the turntable and the line stage preamplifier.
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At the time of experiment (2-3 years ago) I used Zanden 1200 Mk3 but tried only c-j GAT line stage. It was the easiest way to try but don’t think “effects” would be any different under the the phono stage or power amps and as I said, effects under the turntable and line stage were identical but under the turntable they were more pronounced.
As is seen from my signature, I don’t use active isolation in my system. I don’t remember the details anymore but I can’t forget that Zerovibe considerably improved bass performance (power, extension, definition) and dynamics but it also somehow wiped out timbral richness and colors of instruments and that was a spoiler for me. Franc told me I should try a thick slab of solid wood (like he does) but at the time I simply wasn’t in the mood to move a 80kg turntable again, so I passed. Nevertheless I will try Zerovibe again at some point but this time with the slab of wood and a linear power supply. I’m quite sure these two mods are a game changer.
Mike, when you say the soundstage collapses, I presume you mean it shrinks in size. Is this in all three dimensions? Also, beyond the size of the soundstage, can you please describe the quality of the spatial information and of the instruments within the space with the amps sitting on the floor and with the amps on activated Tana platforms?
Tim, I was under the impression that Ron is considering these Tana platforms for under his mono block amplifiers and not under the gear on his Nothing Racks in the equipment room. Perhaps I misunderstood the thrust of his search.
Peter,
in October 2019 i had a visit from the crew from Taiko Audio, Emile, Ed and Ted. read this post from Ed where he mentions the effect of turning the Active on and off.
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
BTW, did you listen to the TOTL speakers from WOLFVONLANGA? Matt No I haven’t.
www.whatsbestforum.com
not sure my verbal arsenal is up to it. but i will try. what i wrote above was that it "collapses noticeably" when the active is removed. but these are things in degrees. we are taking a system and room tuned to the nth degree already for ultimate soundstage and immersive musical effect, and then noticeably bettering that. maybe since my room is tuned the effect of active is bigger? or since i'm far down that road the effect is smaller? don't know. i have not tried it in other rooms.
all i can say is that it's more reach out and touch it holographic, more lively and real sounding, and more of the full rendition of the musical part is coherent and in time. as far as trying to describe specific parameters of the soundstage 3D effect i think it's more the suspension of disbelief increase that happens, not changes in the space specifically.
connecting the dots when you remove 'smearing' distortion (maybe that you never realized existed) then things happen that take things to a more real point.
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hifistay Dharma & Twister.
energy absorber. somehow i acquired 4 of these. they work as a record weight, or a resonance absorber. honestly i cannot hear if they do anything. but i leave them there, plus on top of my dart pre since they match the colors.
like a cable elevator; it might help....and might not do anything.
Dear Ron,
First, thank you for choosing The Nothing Racks!
This is more of FYI than a comparison of brands and products you mention. Nothing Rack (NR), CMS, HRS products have different philosophies and physical approach resulting in very different sonic characters. I consider bass as the most important part and most complex part of the sound to reproduce accurately and where I focus on most and this is also the area where the 3 brands differ most, I would say up to the point of incompatibility in a high resolution system. This has nothing to do which is right, better or worse but something to be aware of when making future purchases.
Nothing Rack was designed as a standalone product with it's own eco system, use of third party platforms, active & passive, footers, cones, etc. in conduction with this rack will have a sonic impact very different from our design ethos. As a direct answer to your question I advise against using a Herzan including modded versions and variants under your amps, sonic character of these products and Nothing Rack aren't compatible and if anything contradictory to one another. Think of it as front & rear wheels of a car spinning in opposite directions.
david
Dear David,
Thank you for the background explanation. I completely agree.
I never intended to use the Tana/Herzan on the shelf of a Nothing Rack. That is why I've been trying to sell the Tana/Herzan.
As I discussed above, I am simply trying to figure out if I want to start by putting the VTL amps on the floor, or on a platform of some kind and the platform on the floor.
Thank you for the background explanation. I completely agree.
I never intended to use the Tana/Herzan on the shelf of a Nothing Rack. That is why I've been trying to sell the Tana/Herzan.
As I discussed above, I am simply trying to figure out if I want to start by putting the VTL amps on the floor, or on a platform of some kind and the platform on the floor.
It's very interesting that both Shakti and Marcus report a dryness and a diminution in timbral richness from using active isolation. MikeL with the Taiko modified Herzans, reports the opposite.
In the same way that wood body cartridges often manifest greater timbral richness and sonic "warmth" and resonance than stone body or metal body cartridges (e.g., Koetsu Rosewood versus Koetsu stone body cartridges) it would not surprise me if reducing vibration of an audio component also might reduce timbral richness and sonic warmth.
But, in theory, vibration induced sonics should not be part of the equation -- unless one has selected Objective 3: "Create a sound pleasing to the audiophile."
In the same way that wood body cartridges often manifest greater timbral richness and sonic "warmth" and resonance than stone body or metal body cartridges (e.g., Koetsu Rosewood versus Koetsu stone body cartridges) it would not surprise me if reducing vibration of an audio component also might reduce timbral richness and sonic warmth.
But, in theory, vibration induced sonics should not be part of the equation -- unless one has selected Objective 3: "Create a sound pleasing to the audiophile."
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Why would anyone want anything other than Objective 3?
What are Objectives 1 and 2? Is there a 4? 5? Etc.
What are Objectives 1 and 2? Is there a 4? 5? Etc.
I have discussed that analytical framework in several places on the forum. I don't want to repeat those discussions, and their progeny, here, please.
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