Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[microstrip]

Ron,

I must agree with David. If you did not consider the active racks for the turntable or phono preamplfier, why considering them for the power electronics?

IMHO the critical aspect with the VTLs is sinking energy away from electronics, not isolating them from floor induced acoustic feedback. To avoid heat I have tried using the Atmasphere MA2's and VTL 750 in a space separated from my room by a thick stone wall with no floor connection between the two rooms and there was no difference in performance. However I I have never tried it with the Siegfried's.

However, in your case I would not sell the Taiko Tana/Herzan TS-140 - I would keep it for a future DAC and Extreme!

 

[microstrip]

(...) But, in theory, vibration induced sonics should not be part of the equation -- unless one has selected Objective 3: "Create a sound pleasing to the audiophile."

Vinyl playback and tubes are essentially a process of dosing and controlling vibration induced sonics - and many people also use it to achieve (1) recreate the sound of an original musical event, and (4) create a sound that seems live.

 

[PeterA]

Vinyl playback and tubes are essentially a process of dosing and controlling vibration induced sonics - and many people also use it to achieve (1) recreate the sound of an original musical event, and (4) create a sound that seems live.

Nice observation Francisco. It seems everything vibrates in Audio. Just a different degrees. It is about controlling the vibrations. My Magico metal cabinets don’t seem to vibrate much and people don’t like that sound. In some cases when components are an attempt to eliminate vibrations, the sound can often be overdamped and rather dull sounding.

When I first read Ron’s comment about vibration induced Sonics, I thought that that is all sonics.

The sound of a piano and the sound of a violin are the sound of vibrations releasing energy into space.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Okay, gentlemen. I think the most logical thing is simply to start with Herbie's de-coupling gliders under the VTLs' footer spikes. And this way I can slide the amps around on the floor, like I want to be able to do in the beginning.

 

[Al M.]

Nice observation Francisco. It seems everything vibrates in Audio. Just a different degrees. It is about controlling the vibrations. My Magico metal cabinets don’t seem to vibrate much and people don’t like that sound. In some cases when components are an attempt to eliminate vibrations, the sound can often be overdamped and rather dull sounding.

Peter, I'm not sure what to make of this connection between Magico speakers and components attempting to eliminate vibrations. I suppose with the latter you mean vibraplanes and such; these indeed make the sound overdamped and a bit dull as we have heard. Or is it not a connection, but just two sentences following each other?

In any case, I don't think eliminating speaker cabinet vibrations necessarily makes the sound overdamped -- it can be quite the contrary. The comparison of Reference 3A monitors with each other can be illuminating in that respect, I think, since these offer varying cabinet rigidity. My current Reference 3A Reflector monitors have a very rigid cabinet. My previous Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE monitors had basically the same drivers, but a less rigid cabinet. Yet the Reflector sound not just more nuanced and resolved, as you might expect. They also sound more lively, more dynamic, more "outspoken".

I think the reason for the greater dynamics and liveliness is that in the Reflector monitors, cabinet resonances do not counteract driver energy. In the MM DeCapo BE monitors, cabinet resonances do counteract driver energy and attenuate some of it, and the sound is somewhat less lively and dynamic as a result (even though these still are very dynamic and lively speakers; the Reference 3A sound was always known for that).

 

[PeterA]

No connection Al. I was just trying to make the point that everything vibrates. Sometimes if you try to kill all vibrations which is extremely difficult anyway, IME you can get a sound that is overly damped. I think Francisco made a nice observation.

 

[tima]

Hi Peter -

Tim, I was under the impression that Ron is considering these Tana platforms for under his mono block amplifiers and not under the gear on his Nothing Racks in the equipment room

I bought a Taiko Tana/Herzan TS-140 a couple of years ago, thinking I would put the Aesthetix Io phono stage amplification unit on top of it. It turns out that the Io on top of the Tana is too tall to fit inside the box compartment -- within the inside dimension -- of my turntable stand.

My understanding is that Ron purchased the Herzan Tana device to place under his Io then later figured out that the two together would not fit in David's rack and thus Ron was trying to sell the Herzan Tana but without luck. That led him to speculate on using the Herzan Tana under his Siegfried amplifiers, and on from there.

Edit: After reading Ron's response to David I see Ron says:

I never intended to use the Tana/Herzan on the shelf of a Nothing Rack. That is why I've been trying to sell the Tana/Herzan. ...

So I'll speculate that Ron had a different rack in mind for the Io when he acquired the isolation device, then after deciding to go with David's Nothing rack he realized what he planned for the Io would not work. Or something like that, otherwise what Ron said above is a non-sequitar, and Ron typically doesn't emit non-sequitars.

Always the danger of responding to a message as you read the thread rather than waiting to read more downstream messages in case more information comes to light. Kinda like buying gear then buying more gear that doesn't fit with the previous purchase. (g,d&r)

 

[tima]

i can turn the decoupling on and off

Mike, when you say you can turn decoupling on and off, do you mean you can turn on the Herzan and turn it off? I thought putting the amp on the device couples them together.

 

[tima]

IMHO the critical aspect with the VTLs is sinking energy away from electronics, not isolating them from floor induced acoustic feedback.

I suppose that depends on the environment/context. If speakers induce vibrations into the floor (concrete definitely rings) and the amps are close to the speakers, then floorborne, airborne, and equipment self-generated vibrations are all factors. In theory.

Sinking energy away from electronics is a critical aspect while also considering where those vibrations come from. Granted, some electronics include mitigation against external resonances. Turntables probably generate more self-noise.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, when you say you can turn decoupling on and off, do you mean you can turn on the Herzan and turn it off? I thought putting the amp on the device couples them together.

there are front panel touch buttons on the TS units (resting on the floor) to engage and disengage decoupling. it's under 10 seconds to take one step to flip those buttons and sit back down in the sweet spot. you can do it in the dark. you are not moving either amp, you are turning the sensors and actuators on and off (the power is still 'on' on the Herzan. but it's in passive mode).

the passive aspect of the Tana 'system' is still functional, you are only affecting the low frequency 'active' resonance attenuation.

did i answer your question? not exactly clear what you are asking.....since i'm not sure how "couples them together" gets applied to this situation.

 

[Bobvin]

Okay, gentlemen. I think the most logical thing is simply to start with Herbie's de-coupling gliders under the VTLs' footer spikes. And this way I can slide the amps around on the floor, like I want to be able to do in the beginning.

Careful Ron, those Herbies might not last long (I might still have some I’d give you, let me look). I put Herbies under my racks to protect the hardwoods beneath the carpet. My wife looked at me and asked “what’s missing”... we decided all the sound was there but none of the music. Those footers, in my system, completely killed the music. They lasted less than 48 hours.

 

[ddk]

Hi Peter -





My understanding is that Ron purchased the Herzan Tana device to place under his Io then later figured out that the two together would not fit in David's rack and thus Ron was trying to sell the Herzan Tana but without luck. That led him to speculate on using the Herzan Tana under his Siegfried amplifiers, and on from there.

Edit: After reading Ron's response to David I see Ron says:



So I'll speculate that Ron had a different rack in mind for the Io when he acquired the isolation device, then after deciding to go with David's Nothing rack he realized what he planned for the Io would not work. Or something like that, otherwise what Ron said above is a non-sequitar, and Ron typically doesn't emit non-sequitars.

Always the danger of responding to a message as you read the thread rather than waiting to read more downstream messages in case more information comes to light. Kinda like buying gear then buying more gear that doesn't fit with the previous purchase. (g,d&r)

The Herzan was purchased after the Nothing Racks, and if I recall correctly it was the idea was for it to sit on the top shelf of one of the racks under the Io. Ron’s racks have 11” clearance between the shelves and could accommodate a platform if desired too. It’s simply not needed or recommended. Aside from personal preference, I still maintain that mixing highend isolation components (for lack of a better term) from the suggested brands in the same system will create sonic conflict.

david

 

[Tango]

The Herzan was purchased after the Nothing Racks, and if I recall correctly it was the idea was for it to sit on the top shelf of one of the racks under the Io. Ron’s racks have 11” clearance between the shelves and could accommodate a platform if desired too. It’s simply not needed or recommended. Aside from personal preference, I still maintain that mixing highend isolation components (for lack of a better term) from the suggested brands in the same system will create sonic conflict.

david

There is always a product for something in high-end. Most of us just like to load everything up only to realize later it is non-essential, not worth the money, effort or making much sense. And then start to unload it quietly not saying anything bad about the product being unloaded to maximize its resale value. Shit! That sounds like me .

 

[Ron Resnick]

Careful Ron, those Herbies might not last long (I might still have some I’d give you, let me look). I put Herbies under my racks to protect the hardwoods beneath the carpet. My wife looked at me and asked “what’s missing”... we decided all the sound was there but none of the music. Those footers, in my system, completely killed the music. They lasted less than 48 hours.

I just don't understand how those footers could have such a big sonic effect. Is the theory that the footers decoupled the amplifiers from the floor (they literally are named "de-couplers") and thus A) prevented energy from draining out of the component and into the floor, or B) allowed airborne or floor-borne vibration to leech into the component, or C) both?

What do you mean, the sound was there, but not the music?

In what way did the footers kill the music?

What are your amplifiers sitting on now?

 

[Tango]

Of all things I ever tried in audio, the CS footers have the most sonic effect.

 

[howiebrou]

Of all things I ever tried in audio, the CS footers have the most sonic effect.

What do you use them under Tang or did they go the way of the dodo too?

 

[ddk]

There is always a product for something in high-end. Most of us just like to load everything up only to realize later it is non-essential, not worth the money, effort or making much sense. And then start to unload it quietly not saying anything bad about the product being unloaded to maximize its resale value. Shit! That sounds like me .

My post wasn’t criticism of anyone just pointing out incompatibilities of the approaches and why one was up for sale.

david

 

[tima]

I still maintain that mixing highend isolation components (for lack of a better term) from the suggested brands in the same system will create sonic conflict.

I agree. And generally few manufacturers find a different product of similar purpose completes theirs. Often the two products are not complimentary and may work at cross purposes, as you mentioned earlier. Buy a Nothing rack or an XYZ rack then put a component on it using Stillpoints .... people do that sort of thing - go figure.

I currently have in for review an SRA platform built for my turntable. It is sitting on the top shelf of an SRA Scuttle rack that I bought several years ago. So, two different vibration management products together. However, SRA knows I own a specific model Scuttle and factored that into the custom build of the turntable platform. That likely would not happen with two different manufacturers or with off-the-shelf products.

 

[tima]

did i answer your question? not exactly clear what you are asking.....since i'm not sure how "couples them together" gets applied to this situation.

Yes you did answer my question, thank you.

You said you could turn on and off the coupling of your amp and Tana Herzan. By your explanation I understand you can activate or deactivate the Herzan piezo electric counter vibration function (or however you want to describe it.) To me 'coupling' means the joining of two objects, eg sitting on on top of another.

 

[shakti]

It's very interesting that both Shakti and Marcus report a dryness and a diminution in timbral richness from using active isolation. MikeL with the Taiko modified Herzans, reports the opposite.

We reported this effect with the standard industrial active base. This Design works from 5hz to 200hz.
Both, the Panzerholz and the Artesania Acoustic Glass top surface do extend the effectiveness of the active base and increases the tonal balance. Your Tana is a well voiced platform.

Does the "The Nothing Rack" comes mit dedicated footers between component chassis and rack platform?
or are the standard component feets the unknown variable in the concept?
( I have not seen this Rack in life, so I do not know)

I like with HRS and CMS,
that they offer dedicated footers to control the interface between component Chassis and the Rack platform