Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Maybe; but unless I have CMS or HRS amp stands right next to the Tana/Herzans I will never have a direct comparison and a clear answer.
Ron, these will invariably affect the sound. Might be for the better, or it might not be. If it were me, I would try to listen to the effect of these platforms under amplifiers before you commit to spending the money.
take your Tana and place it under a friends stereo amplifier and listen to the effect yourself.
This is a perfectly reasonable and practical view.
Do you think components are designed to sound the way the designer wishes (for some reason I find the term "voiced" to be annoying, so I am avoiding using it here) assuming a median level of ambient vibration in homes?
Jim White told me that he feels nothing bad sonically could come from placing an Io on a Herzan. If I remember correctly, David agreed with this, too.
I do not like the term "voiced" either. Some designers, I've talk to chuckle at this notion as well.
I will be able to tell you the difference of the Io on a HRS M3x2 versus, just 2" HRS Nimbus feet versus the Io just on a Finite Elemente stand.
I can tell you that the 2" Nimbus feet system had a profound positive effect on articulation and bass quality when I first used them with the Io.
I bought my Brinkmann Balance with its own M3x2 so the spare one will go under the Io now and I will perform those experiments over the holidays.
Ron, you can certainly take someone else’s word for it. I don’t know how designers assume their components will sound in certain conditions.
Has anyone other than MikeL placed an amplifier on a Herzan? Do we have a second data point on this topic from anywhere in the audio world?
In my listening room (wood floor), I had the opportunity to switch between
HRS M3X (80 x 60cm, 8 feets) (spring)
on the ground
CMS MAXXUM (80 x 55cm) (Gel type?)
Rack and Platform
Accurion i4L (70cm x 55cm) (active)
on CMS Olympus Amp Stand
My amp that time was the VTL S 400, which has the same chassis, that VTL Siegfried.
Findings:
HRS M3X
clean and structured, good resolution, a little bit dry
With Heavy Nimbus feet: more substance in the lower miss, upper bass region, but colored.
Original spikes plus Harmonix spike platform: more easy to connect to the music, still more neutral than Nimbus
CMS MAXXUM
engaging, nice "emotional" sound, tonal more warm, that HRS in general,
but does not give the feeling of colored sound. Bass structure and contour nice, but less defined than HRS
Accurion i4L (70cm x 55cm) (active)
High Resolution, structure and contour very good. In terms of neutral and most information the best, but dry and lean on the other hand. I added a heavy Multiplex wood plate (had no Panzerholz available). The tonal balance was more nice, but added a woody element to the sound.
I assume, that Herzan is similar to Accurion, so may be my experience will help a little.
In my personal set up that time with MAXX 3 I have chosen the CMS MAXXUM, as I enjoyed the music most.
status today is, that even my Heisenberg Amps are both placed on the MAXXUM, and the Accurion got the Artesania heavy acoustic glass platform on top and is used as Basis for my TechDAS AF 3 premium.
The HRS is waiting for the next job. I have two of them, so perfect for heavy and huge mono Amplifier,
we will see, what the future will bring.
HRS M3X (80 x 60cm, 8 feets) (spring)
on the ground
CMS MAXXUM (80 x 55cm) (Gel type?)
Rack and Platform
Accurion i4L (70cm x 55cm) (active)
on CMS Olympus Amp Stand
My amp that time was the VTL S 400, which has the same chassis, that VTL Siegfried.
Findings:
HRS M3X
clean and structured, good resolution, a little bit dry
With Heavy Nimbus feet: more substance in the lower miss, upper bass region, but colored.
Original spikes plus Harmonix spike platform: more easy to connect to the music, still more neutral than Nimbus
CMS MAXXUM
engaging, nice "emotional" sound, tonal more warm, that HRS in general,
but does not give the feeling of colored sound. Bass structure and contour nice, but less defined than HRS
Accurion i4L (70cm x 55cm) (active)
High Resolution, structure and contour very good. In terms of neutral and most information the best, but dry and lean on the other hand. I added a heavy Multiplex wood plate (had no Panzerholz available). The tonal balance was more nice, but added a woody element to the sound.
I assume, that Herzan is similar to Accurion, so may be my experience will help a little.
In my personal set up that time with MAXX 3 I have chosen the CMS MAXXUM, as I enjoyed the music most.
status today is, that even my Heisenberg Amps are both placed on the MAXXUM, and the Accurion got the Artesania heavy acoustic glass platform on top and is used as Basis for my TechDAS AF 3 premium.
The HRS is waiting for the next job. I have two of them, so perfect for heavy and huge mono Amplifier,
we will see, what the future will bring.
Thanks for sharing these impressions, Shakti. Very interesting results.
Ron, My goal would be to retrieve as much information as possible while corrupting or changing it as little as possible. Easier said than done. It helps to experiment with many alternatives. Different is not always better, and IMO, one should have a clear idea of what he is trying to improve before he begins to audition alternatives and decides to get something new.
For this reason, I would hold off on any decisions, just as you are with more fancy cables. You do not know what your system will sound like when it is eventually set up. Why guess now and spend money now? Set it up, listen, and learn what you want to change first. You will have hardwood flooring over concrete slab. Will there be some interface between them? How are you so sure that the amps will be swimming in a sea of vibration and sound bad? Tang has his SETs on his LF horns. IMO, there are too many unknowns right now.
This is extremely interesting and relevant. Thank you very much for taking the time to write and post this!
Can I clarify something? So these impressions are with:
VTL on HRS platform (no low amp stand) directly on floor
VTL on Accurion on low CMS amp stand on floor
VTL on CMS shelf on CMS tall stand
I completely appreciate you giving us these impressions, but just to be clear, it seems like these are three different configurations (one directly flat on floor, one on amp stand on floor, one on tall stand) which make apples to apples conclusions difficult?
i suppose it is obvious.....it should be obvious; but comparing the Tana active 'system' to a 'nude' Herzan or Accurion is of limited value.
Taiko Tana is a full spectrum resonance attenuation and a music reproduction optimized product. it also eliminates the SMPS noise factor to your signal path. it includes the basic TS active unit, a 10mm attached layer of Panzerholtz. a thin rubber membrane, a Taiko Daiza, plus a panzerholtz encased linear power supply with Lindahl chokes. the quality of the power supply make significant performance differences.
Ron; i know you know about these differences, but wanted to include them in this thread as a reference for readers not familiar with the significance of the Tana 'system'.
you can throw DIY mods at an active unit with a cheap LPS, and some sort of wood platform. but an engineered system is another level.
will every system get a good ROI from the Tana? and will every piece of gear get the same benefit? can't say. they (i own 5 of them) have worked well for me.
Taiko Tana is a full spectrum resonance attenuation and a music reproduction optimized product. it also eliminates the SMPS noise factor to your signal path. it includes the basic TS active unit, a 10mm attached layer of Panzerholtz. a thin rubber membrane, a Taiko Daiza, plus a panzerholtz encased linear power supply with Lindahl chokes. the quality of the power supply make significant performance differences.
Ron; i know you know about these differences, but wanted to include them in this thread as a reference for readers not familiar with the significance of the Tana 'system'.
you can throw DIY mods at an active unit with a cheap LPS, and some sort of wood platform. but an engineered system is another level.
will every system get a good ROI from the Tana? and will every piece of gear get the same benefit? can't say. they (i own 5 of them) have worked well for me.
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For the bigger customized HRS M3X platforms no stand exists.
The HRS "spring" Design works without a rack or stand, as the Design includes dedicated spring feets,
the number and the D rate of the feets will be according to your order/specification.
The CMS platforms and any active platform do have only a flat plate, so do need to work best a construction to sit on, otherwise they will be flat on the ground. The Accurion platform will perform, even flat on the floor, as this is part of the Design. The CMS platform not, they do need a kind of small roller decoupling, as it is standard with the CMS Racks.
So I have used the three platform according their specification.
On this picture you can see the standard CMS Ampstand, which I had used to host the Accurion platform
(now being used to host a CMS platform and my Furutech power distributor)
On this picture you can see a customized HRS M3x Platform with more than the standard 4 feets, so no HRS Rack will fit and a direct floor placement is within the Design
On this picture you can see my CMS Maxxum Amp stand and platform, wich is a customized size as well,
originally developed to host a Constellation Hercules amp,
Thank you very much, Shakti!
My only technical quibble is that I believe the Accurion/Herzan type platform is recommended to be placed only either directly on the floor or on a very solid and rigid stand or base?
Is the "standard CMS amp stand" a CMS product which uses a CMS "filter" platform (as with current CMS amp stands, I believe, which sits inside the stand structure), or is it a solid structure with no filter or base?
If it is the de-coupled filter style I am wondering if the lack of rigid coupling to the floor might have in some way confused or adulterated the operation of the Accurion (versus the Accurion being simply flat on the floor)?
My only technical quibble is that I believe the Accurion/Herzan type platform is recommended to be placed only either directly on the floor or on a very solid and rigid stand or base?
Is the "standard CMS amp stand" a CMS product which uses a CMS "filter" platform (as with current CMS amp stands, I believe, which sits inside the stand structure), or is it a solid structure with no filter or base?
If it is the de-coupled filter style I am wondering if the lack of rigid coupling to the floor might have in some way confused or adulterated the operation of the Accurion (versus the Accurion being simply flat on the floor)?
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But considering the Herzan is the active part, and the Taiko modifications are the passive part, a stock Herzan and a Taiko Tana must yield vibration results which are more alike than different, no?
you'd have to go back and read the posts from Eurodriver (Ed Hsu) where he speaks to the higher frequency attenuation aspects of the Tana additions and judge for yourself whether that equates to 'alike' the 'nude' Herzan or not. i would agree it goes down the same road. below 200hz they two are alike in resonance attenuation. but the Tana is still better in those frequencies with the better power supply.
it would be more correct to say that the 'nude' Herzan covers an important positive part of the Tana performance envelope, but then also consider that the Tana also eliminates the negative (SMPS) part of the Herzan.
also we know that both the Herzan and Tana need to be used where it both sits on a solid foundation, and the gear on top has no self noise that can be sensed by the Herzan or Tana.
Mike, I agree on each point!
In addition to increased resolution and a more stable and clearly-defined soundstage, is there any sense in which you hear a less liquid sound when they're Tanas are active?
Do you hear in any way any sonic negatives from the Tanas in active mode?
The amps will be in the middle of the front floor, between 1000 watt powered woofer towers. It is logical to me that that must be a relatively high acoustic vibration and floorborne vibration environment.
You are correct that I could do nothing elaborate at this point and simply put the amps on the floor and sit the spikes on the bottom of the amplifiers into Herbie floor sliders and leave it there to start with.
(I am obviously wrong because Tang's sound is absolutely stunning, but, yes, in theory, I would think that the top of basshorns would not be ideal location for tube amplifiers.)
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The CMS Portfolio is modular, so you can buy an Ampstand from the Maxxum, the QXK or the PXK range.
My ampstands are Maxxum and PXK.
Than you can combine the CMS Rack with CMS filter platforms, like Maxxum, Black Diamond, Black Platinum and so on.
My customized Maxxum Ampstand is combined with the Maxxum filter platform
The PXK Ampstand was used to host the Accurion active base without using any CMS platform, just to use the rigid structure of the CMS PXK Ampstand to decouple the Accurion better from he floor. In my case better, that having the Accurion direct on the floor
Eurodriver (Ed) visited that time my home and we discussed constraints and opportunities of active bases.
I perfectly understand and agree the steps Eurodriver has done to the basic Herzan platform.
The PSU of the Accurion is a little better, than the one coming as OEM with the Herzan,
so I have not exchanged the Original PSU, but I use a powerfilter on top.
Instead of Panzerholz ( I have no access to ), I am using the heavy 3 layer acoustic glass platform from Artesania on top of my Accurion. Effect is similar, you extend the efficiency of the platform to higher frequencies.
My floor is standard wood on beton. The wooden surface works like a resonating membrane. Below my racks, speakers and amp stands are the HRS heavy metal weights placed to minimize the surface resonances.
The sonic effect is easy to recognize.
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