Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[microstrip]

(...) Curtseying has about as much to do with today's behavior and cultural norms as fancy packaging and expensive finishes on connectors have to do with natural sounding audio systems. Presentation still matters to some, however, and I respect that. (...)

Peter,
Do you really consider that expensive finish on connectors is always just a "presentation" affair?

 

[microstrip]

Dear Francisco,

I'm truly a little puzzled why you find the adjective "fancy" inappropriate. I use the word, and my grandmother used to use the word, and I believe Peter uses the word, as a single word summary simply to distinguish common/simpler/inexpensive from uncommon/exotic/expensive.

Context, dear Ron, just context ...

 

[cjfrbw]

Are people still arguing about Jewelry Wires Of The Audio Enlightened? How dare they call them merely 'fancy'.

 

[microstrip]

All fair points, Peter. For electronics and for sources I feel strongly that implementation trumps theory and that implementation trumps topology.

For loudspeakers I think I feel less strongly that implementation trumps topology, meaning that I think, for example, that the sonic presentation of planars in general are more like each other than a particular planar is going to offer the presentation of a particular dynamic driver system.

Back to the thread subject, I think planars have common limitations - maximum loudness, deep bass, the way they compress bass when operated at very low frequencies, but are also very different sounding.

IMHO Apogees, Quad ESL63, Audiostatics, Martin Logan's, Magneplanars or SoundLabs have very little in common in sound quality or even electrically . Planars such as Soundlab can easily create a sound bigger than life, that some people liking girl on guitar enjoy. I usually try to tame such tendency in the set up.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,
Do you really consider that expensive finish on connectors is always just a "presentation" affair?

Fransisco, could you rephrase the question please? I don’t understand what you’re trying to ask me.

I’m confused by your qualifier “always“ and I don’t think I stated that I think it is just a presentation affair. Marketing and cost are likely also factors in some but not all of these products. I limited my comment to packaging and finishes, but there’s more to it than that.

I do think materials affect sound. Perhaps the way the materials are finished affects the sound also but I’m not sure.

my point is that the packaging of some of these items and the quality of the finish in my opinion has little to do with the final sonic result sounding more natural. Just my opinion. But those two things might have a lot to do with other aspects of selling the cables.

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, could you rephrase the question please? I don’t understand what you’re trying to ask me.

I’m confused by your qualifier “always“ and I don’t think I stated that I think it is just a presentation affair. Marketing and cost are likely also factors in some but not all of these products. I limited my comment to packaging and finishes, but there’s more to it than that.

I do think materials affect sound. Perhaps the way the materials are finished affects the sound also but I’m not sure.

my point is that the packaging of some of these items and the quality of the finish in my opinion has little to do with the final sonic result sounding more natural. Just my opinion. But those two things might have a lot to do with other aspects of selling the cables.

Well, if you consider that the quality of the finish of connectors has little to do with performance I see why we are disagreeing. In fact, the finish is many times associated with the performance. You change the finish and you change the sonics. Surely, the frontier between performance and bling is many times unclear. It is sad that most times more expensive materials look better and have better electromechanical properties, but usually nature is not kind in these aspects.

Edit - replaced "has nothing to do " with "has little to do"

 

[PeterA]

Well, if you consider that the quality of the finish of connectors has nothing to do with performance I see why we are disagreeing. In fact, the finish is many times associated with the performance. You change the finish and you change the sonics. Surely, the frontier between performance and bling is many times unclear. It is sad that most times more expensive materials look better and have better electromechanical properties, but usually nature is not kind in these aspects.

Francisco, you are inaccurately portraying what I wrote. I did not say the quality of the finish of connectors has “nothing” to do with performance. This is what I wrote:

“I do think materials affect sound. Perhaps the way the materials are finished affects the sound also but I’m not sure.”

You often suggest that we read the books you recommend. I kindly request that you read what I actually wrote in this thread. I wrote that the quality the finish in my opinion has little to do with the sonic result sounding natural.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, you are inaccurately portraying what I wrote. I did not say the quality of the finish of connectors has “nothing” to do with performance. This is what I wrote:

“I do think materials affect sound. Perhaps the way the materials are finished affects the sound also but I’m not sure.”

You often suggest that we read the books you recommend. I kindly request that you read what I actually wrote in this thread. I wrote that the quality the finish in my opinion has little to do with the sonic result sounding natural.

OK, sorry. Replace nothing with little. The sense of my post keeps exactly the same.
Considering I replaced it, are you going to read the books I recommended?

 

[BruceD]

Ah yes dear old HP--his usage relative to such aspects of the presentation as a "Kodachrome"or "Ektachrome" synergy ?

Raised a chuckle.

BruceD

 

[Lagonda]

OK, sorry. Replace nothing with little. The sense of my post keeps exactly the same.
Considering I replaced it, are you going to read the books I recommended?

Read those books the professor told you to Peter !

 

[ddk]

Well, if you consider that the quality of the finish of connectors has little to do with performance I see why we are disagreeing. In fact, the finish is many times associated with the performance. You change the finish and you change the sonics.

Peter never said that and you need to clarify your comment Francisco. Please define the quality of connectors you're speaking of, are you just going by looks or claims made by cable terminators? Which type of finishing is associated with performance? Are you talking fancy or plain finishes?

david

 

[microstrip]

Peter never said that and you need to clarify your comment Francisco. Please define the quality of connectors you're speaking of, are you just going by looks or claims made by cable terminators? Which type of finishing is associated with performance? Are you talking fancy or plain finishes?

david

Sorry David, Peter comment and my answer are now clear. No need to diverge.

The main point I was discussing with Peter is very well defined. I only entered Ron's thread to comment a Peter remark, nothing really new. BTW, most of the time my point is simply that things sound different, not forcefully "better". This is an hobby of difference.

 

[Folsom]

Well, if you consider that the quality of the finish of connectors has little to do with performance I see why we are disagreeing. In fact, the finish is many times associated with the performance. You change the finish and you change the sonics. Surely, the frontier between performance and bling is many times unclear. It is sad that most times more expensive materials look better and have better electromechanical properties, but usually nature is not kind in these aspects.

Edit - replaced "has nothing to do " with "has little to do"

It's baffling. But let's consider how much of the old albums we like had connectors made out of brass, aluminum, and steel.

I would never deny that more expensive materials with great conducting properties have fascinating changes to the sound. But I can say at this point after fooling around with all of them that I am uninterested in the exotics. There's nothing wrong with brass or variations of it. I'm ok with higher copper parts than brass as well in some cases, mostly speaker cables and binding posts as they don't seem to pronounce themselves.

However none of that puts me in a objective camp as I think some "neutral" cables like Mogami etc are on the harsh side in many stereos or are trying to bring a little life back into other situations, inappropriately. Good on paper, and very useful when measuring certain things, but overall will fight you from getting enjoyable sound. You end up making weird concessions IMO. Part of that is probably due to weird trends of things that sound awful these days.

 

[ddk]

It's baffling. But let's consider how much of the old albums we like had connectors made out of brass, aluminum, and steel.

I would never deny that more expensive materials with great conducting properties have fascinating changes to the sound. But I can say at this point after fooling around with all of them that I am uninterested in the exotics. There's nothing wrong with brass or variations of it. I'm ok with higher copper parts than brass as well in some cases, mostly speaker cables and binding posts as they don't seem to pronounce themselves.

However none of that puts me in a objective camp as I think some "neutral" cables like Mogami etc are on the harsh side in many stereos or are trying to bring a little life back into other situations, inappropriately. Good on paper, and very useful when measuring certain things, but overall will fight you from getting enjoyable sound. You end up making weird concessions IMO. Part of that is probably due to weird trends of things that sound awful these days.

Mogami isn't particularly neutral ! They do have a very definite sonic signature just that in this case Mogami and Canare might be Ron's best and only choices. Most audiophile interconnects change character, either become shrill or lose definition or lose something else and best of them remain coherent up to 10 meter lengths, irrespective of SE or XLR termination. Personally I never tried interconnect wires from either brand in these lengths only their mic cable and that didn't change over the 18m length I used. I used the wire for a pair of SE interconnects at an audio show to replace the one provided by the cable manufacturer sharing the room.

david

 

[Folsom]

Mogami isn't particularly neutral ! They do have a very definite sonic signature it that in this case Mogami and Canare might be Ron's best and only choices. Most audiophile interconnects change character, either become shrill or lose definition or lose something else and best of them remain coherent up to 10 meter lengths, irrespective of SE or XLR termination. Personally I never tried interconnect wires from either brand in these lengths only their mic cable and that didn't change over the 18m length I used. I used the wire for a pair of SE interconnects at an audio show to replace the one provided by the cable manufacturer sharing the room.

david

Maybe I'll get the itch to make two demo sets for him to try... We'll see. They're awfully long runs IIRC; and XLR only amps I think?

Mogami is on the shrill side to me. I guess with super flat sounding recent music maybe it's better, but really you can't save that - it's going to sound mediocre no matter what, AFAIK.

 

[ddk]

:--)

The more 'fancy' quotes I looked at the more I became convinced that your later use of the word was pointed and not by accident, and ultimately I concluded it was all high humor. Fancy that!

Several people use 'natural'. Those possessed (or is it dispossessed) by use of the term are perhaps more irked by having been led down a path towards something which is not that. And we see no advocacy for 'not that' has risen, just irkedness, although a small handful (no names) in the face of au natural simply don't give a .... I kinda admire them for at least standing up for not that despite myself being an advocate for the sound of live music as my own reference.

HP's vocabulary and its relative acceptance is/was, imo, a function of his primary tenet that we should use our ears rather than measurements for gauging stereos and components. (David somewhat disagrees with me on this.) HP's vocabulary developed from his attempt to phenomenologically describe what he heard and it became more of an on-going dialog with readers rather than being codified as some see it today. I think his acolytes and some who mis-used or over-used his notions did far more damage.

Alas, tenure isn't what is used to be - but thank you!

I don't disagree that HP was in the subjective camp and as far as his glossary goes I have no opinion on it one way or another just was never interested to study it. I stopped reading the magazine or anything he wrote after visiting Sea Cliff in the 1990's, it's his body of work and how he approached and defined the so called absolute sound that I have a problem with.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maybe I'll get the itch to make two demo sets for him to try... We'll see. They're awfully long runs IIRC; and XLR only amps I think?

Mogami is on the shrill side to me. I guess with super flat sounding recent music maybe it's better, but really you can't save that - it's going to sound mediocre no matter what, AFAIK.

What interconnect do you think I should start out with for the 50 foot run?

 

[Folsom]

What interconnect do you think I should start out with for the 50 foot run?

I'm a little biased as I think tinned copper is the best but I wouldn't possibly try to drag you through high capacitance stuff like Dueland or other so-so stuff. I make cables. 50 foot run is intense but not out of the question. From a technical perspective there are some challenges when you're not having something extruded out of simple plastics in china. We'll see what the hopefully near future holds as far s a demo set that long.

 

[tima]

I don't disagree that HP was in the subjective camp and as far as his glossary goes I have no opinion on it one way or another just was never interested to study it. I stopped reading the magazine or anything he wrote after visiting Sea Cliff in the 1990's, it's his body of work and how he approached and defined the so called absolute sound that I have a problem with.

I found where you and I previously discussed HP, rougly around page 80 of Peter's Sublime Sound thread. I placed the enthusiasm for HP in part on the reaction against those magazines where THD and signal-to-noise ratio ruled the day. You commented that the 'measurement is everything era was short-lived' and observed those coming before HP in the 50's & 60's discussed sound subjectively. So if we were disagreeing (and maybe we weren't) it was on a relatively minor point. Where I thought we did agree was on things going astray when HP failed to tie his vocabulary back to his notion of the absolute sound (live acoustic music), that is some of his descriptions (eg. pinpoint imaging) did not describe reality.

 

[tima]

I make cables.

Very interesting. I did not know this. I'm guessing you mean audio cables. Do you make them as a hobby for yourself or commercially?