spirit- curious what horns will give you that the Def4s don't. while i love the look of Trio Classicos, most horn systems have zero WAF. curious what your girlfriend thinks...mine won't even allow Unos, which i think look much nicer than a decade ago.
Sadurni Acoustics horns - any thoughts?
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
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Keith, now you're asking!
I absolutely love my Def 4s - w/each upgrade, they just keep giving. Balanced power and Entreq grounding has reduced their noise floor, Sablon cables and initial Shun Mooks have enhanced their tone, and vitally their x'overless design utilising full range drivers unsullied btwn 40Hz-11kHz and near horn like efficiency of 101dB/m efficiency means I can utilise SETs (Nat Audio SE2SE 211s) w/them which just allows them to really demonstrate purity, sparkle and texture.
I have no desire to swap them for any other box spkr, and indeed they stomped over all the ones I listened to in comparison when considering their initial purchase.
But horns really can take things a quantum leap fwd. Going 101db to 108db efficiency, lightning fast drivers that need v.little power to fully perform, and effectively open baffle principle - all results in a more relaxed, dynamic and truly present sound, that no matter how exemplary the Zus are, they just cannot match.
BUT...the Zus are better all 'round performers imho, esp on less than stellar recordings, sounding much more grounded than slightly schizophrenic horns seemingly "looking" for a soundstage, often not locking in and losing focus. Great for Nina Simone, not so much for Rush. And bass integration from subs to main horns is harder to achieve than you might imagine - only one model seems to do this anywhere near as well as what the Zus do btwn sub bass and full range drivers.
Presently, I'm getting another major step up in Zu performance, w/a new loom of Sablon cables, and move to US plugs on PCs and US sockets on my bpt, and planned fitting of Duelund caps to tweeter network and Lundahl transformers to the Zu sub amp modules.
And hence here lies my dilemma - the Zu sound that I fell in love with in the first 5 mins in 2008 w/the Def 2s, rekindled in 2012 w/current Def 4s, cemented further w/all these changes, means my devotion to them is higher than ever.
But now a new good looking girl has come into view
!
How much do I value monagamy, chastity, yada yada - and how much do I fancy a fling ?
Btw, as long as I fund an expensive garden for my gf on our next property move, I get no hassle on this choice :b.
I absolutely love my Def 4s - w/each upgrade, they just keep giving. Balanced power and Entreq grounding has reduced their noise floor, Sablon cables and initial Shun Mooks have enhanced their tone, and vitally their x'overless design utilising full range drivers unsullied btwn 40Hz-11kHz and near horn like efficiency of 101dB/m efficiency means I can utilise SETs (Nat Audio SE2SE 211s) w/them which just allows them to really demonstrate purity, sparkle and texture.
I have no desire to swap them for any other box spkr, and indeed they stomped over all the ones I listened to in comparison when considering their initial purchase.
But horns really can take things a quantum leap fwd. Going 101db to 108db efficiency, lightning fast drivers that need v.little power to fully perform, and effectively open baffle principle - all results in a more relaxed, dynamic and truly present sound, that no matter how exemplary the Zus are, they just cannot match.
BUT...the Zus are better all 'round performers imho, esp on less than stellar recordings, sounding much more grounded than slightly schizophrenic horns seemingly "looking" for a soundstage, often not locking in and losing focus. Great for Nina Simone, not so much for Rush. And bass integration from subs to main horns is harder to achieve than you might imagine - only one model seems to do this anywhere near as well as what the Zus do btwn sub bass and full range drivers.
Presently, I'm getting another major step up in Zu performance, w/a new loom of Sablon cables, and move to US plugs on PCs and US sockets on my bpt, and planned fitting of Duelund caps to tweeter network and Lundahl transformers to the Zu sub amp modules.
And hence here lies my dilemma - the Zu sound that I fell in love with in the first 5 mins in 2008 w/the Def 2s, rekindled in 2012 w/current Def 4s, cemented further w/all these changes, means my devotion to them is higher than ever.
But now a new good looking girl has come into view
!How much do I value monagamy, chastity
, yada yada - and how much do I fancy a fling ?Btw, as long as I fund an expensive garden for my gf on our next property move, I get no hassle on this choice :b.
I have heard a system very similar to the Sadurni (time aligned horns, compression drivers for tweeter and mid) and I was blown away. It caused me to run home and time align the midrange horn on my Avantgarde Uno Nano, a revelation btw.
My next speakers will be three way, time aligned horns with the Fostex 500 mkII.
My next speakers will be three way, time aligned horns with the Fostex 500 mkII.
Time aligning must be critical in horns esp due to the drastic differences in depth of each driver. As per previous criticism, I'm not going to comment on other designs because truthfully I don't have exact tech data, and also I don't want to be accused of dissing other designs. But the deliberately-designed ease of moving the horns back and forth relative to each other is a plus point in my consideration of Sadurni.
Jeffrey_t, what were these horns you listened to, and what are the ones you are considering?
Jeffrey_t, what were these horns you listened to, and what are the ones you are considering?
All visitors are blown away by the change in my system after I time aligned the mid range horn for me Avantgarde, I won't buy another speaker without this feature.
I've heard this system many times (link below), It's very similar to the Sadurni system with compression tweeter and mid, and 140 hz midbass horn:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1103243057
Probably the best site for multi-way horn design discussion is Romy's site (goodsoundclub.com). Romy is an advocate of physical time alignment, compression drivers, ETC. I'm currently buying parts for a similar DIY project when I see them come up for sale.
I've heard this system many times (link below), It's very similar to the Sadurni system with compression tweeter and mid, and 140 hz midbass horn:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1103243057
Probably the best site for multi-way horn design discussion is Romy's site (goodsoundclub.com). Romy is an advocate of physical time alignment, compression drivers, ETC. I'm currently buying parts for a similar DIY project when I see them come up for sale.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Romy's been on every site until he is banned. The great thing about this forum is that the moderators strive to keep the dialog pleasant, I don't post a lot but I due visit a lot. Romy's site has fantastic information, but posting is not for the faint of heart.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
My problem with his site is I don't know how to glean information on there if he going to shout down everything as rubbish. According to him valve amps, other horns, all power supplies except Purepower, all transports except CEC TLO, everything else is rubbish. You either accept on his site that based on his assessment you will not experiment with anything, or decide to find out for yourself in which case his recommendations become meaningless because he hardly has any
- not to mention that most are based on armchair research rather than actual listening.His site is just another place for opinion, but there is a wealth of "data" and he has experimented with a plethora of horns/drivers. I find his observations valuable as he had Avantgardes and I agree with the limitations that he heard with these speakers. Everything is subjective however,
ahh the legend of Romy the Cat
...so quick, i am not even sure i saw him come and go...or did not realize it was him. I have occasionally read his site, and was interested to see of all things he bashed...he actually has a lot of relatively good things to say about the X1/X2 Wilsons. No, not perfect in his opinion, but he has had a lot of positive things to say about the Grand Slamms. And the Lamm ML2s as well (vastly preferring them to the newer 2.1s, though no update on the 2.2s). (And the PAD Dominus Rev B cable. He also loved the Zanden digital and then reversed course completely after hearing it another time.)
After seeing his setup and more importantly, DDKs Silbatone setup...i do have to admit to being a bit more intrigued about extreme horns set up well.
DDK is not silbatone. Silbatone makes the WE horns, and is run by a South Korean billionaire who is one of the owners of Hyundai. He does it as a hobby.
DDK's set up are original Siemens Bionor from the late 50's - still vintage though. If you want to listen to to radically different horns around London, do the Avantgarde Trios with bass horns in Frankfurt and/or Nice, Animas and WE in Paris, an Anima in Brimingham, a JBL in Berlin, WE at Munich hifi show. Horns aside, they will all show a different aspect of sound, irrespective of whether you like the horns or not.
Jeffrey, thanx for those thoughts. Time alignment it is. I've spoken to Jorge the Sadurni designer, and he stresses most of what dials in his sound is down to getting the time alignment just right, and probably takes 48 hrs to get right together w/physical placement of the horns to start.
Lastly I'd like to post the extremely civil conversation that Romy has with Jorge from Sadurni on his forum:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=16858
It really looks like Sadurni is doing the right things from the "horn communities" stand point. Maybe I should look closer at his horn system instead of building my own......
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=16858
It really looks like Sadurni is doing the right things from the "horn communities" stand point. Maybe I should look closer at his horn system instead of building my own......
Atm, planning my visit to NYC to audition the Sadurnis. Jeffrey's thoughts on the essential need for time alignment reflected in Jorge's emphasis on this area is yet another positive. Of course the proof of the pudding will be in the eating (listening), but I'm making a big undertaking to listen to these horns based on tech considerations and positive feedback (as such, I've declined the chance to audition Haigner horns - not 4 way, Berlin-based JBL speciality horns - aesthetics a little lacking, BD Design horns - seemingly best w/SS amps only), and my final decision is coming down to Sadurni v AG Trio/Basshorns G2 v sticking w. my Zus. DIY horns, as much from an aesthetic perspective as anything else, are also not on the menu for me. The Romy/Jorge conversation quite interesting, inasmuch as Romy doesn't put the boot in, with his unique take on critical use of the English language!
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I hope this is not out of place, I am posting the links to a review of our Staccato speakers by Sadurni Acoustics in Dagogo. written by Laurence Borden.
http://www.dagogo.com/sadurni-acoustics-staccato-speakers-review-part-i-setup
http://www.dagogo.com/sadurni-acoustics-staccato-speakers-review-part-ii-the-sound
http://www.dagogo.com/sadurni-acoustics-staccato-speakers-review-part-i-setup
http://www.dagogo.com/sadurni-acoustics-staccato-speakers-review-part-ii-the-sound
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