Saskia model two

Mike Lavigne

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You have a guy to do a panzerholz arm board for you to try Mike. ;)

true that......Mr. Tang.

at some point that might be a consideration. however; my desire is to hear the tt as it was intended to be heard......with an original equipment arm board. so i wait and stew. more likely i would buy a tone arm i already have an arm board sitting here for. i have a few pretty good choices.

and getting Emile to tackle an arm board when he is up to his elbows in Daiza shelf and Extreme server back orders would be tough. 6 months ago i suggested he design a panzerholtz plinth for the new Technics SP-10R. and combine it with a Tana shelf. it would be killer.....an SAT slayer i think (i know) for less than 20% of the price...........if he decided to do it and put his focus on making it optimal. he never even answered me......just too busy.

besides; Emile is in the Netherlands. if he started making an arm board today i would not have it until next week......and by then i should have the slate ones.
 
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PeterA

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Mike, I understand your frustration. But, I don't think it is only because the armboards are made of slate. I am trying to have two custom designed armboards made for me, one brass, the other stainless steel, with SME cutout and tapped holes for screw mounting. It is taking a long time to find a machine shop near me that can do it in the next two months. Everyone seems busy now.

I understand the slate concept for vibrations from the bearing and motor. Why does the armboard need to be slate? Could it not be brass or stainless steel, or some other material? I guess it is all about some sonic signature. I bet the slate looks best with the rest of the table.

Do the Durand arms require different cut out dimensions that those used on each of the seven other armboards? That is interesting. Oh yes, isn't the Durand arm surface mounted, so you just need a flat surface with the right tapped screw holes.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Mike, I understand your frustration. But, I don't think it is only because the armboards are made of slate. I am trying to have two custom designed armboards made for me, one brass, the other stainless steel, with SME cutout and tapped holes for screw mounting. It is taking a long time to find a machine shop near me that can do it in the next two months. Everyone seems busy now.

I understand the slate concept for vibrations from the bearing and motor. Why does the armboard need to be slate? Could it not be brass or stainless steel, or some other material? I guess it is all about some sonic signature. I bet the slate looks best with the rest of the table.

Do the Durand arms require different cut out dimensions that those used on each of the seven other armboards? That is interesting. Oh yes, isn't the Durand arm surface mounted, so you just need a flat surface with the right tapped screw holes.

Peter,

All the Durand tone arms are surface mount, 4 screw holes. So it’s plot the holes, then drill and tap the holes. But drilling and tapping slate, and slate where it has to be right the first time, is where it gets complicated.

I’m using existing slate arm boards, and these are not only a contoured shape and stepped edge, but also have legs attached and ground wires too. So if I were to find someone new to do this, there would be lots of hassle to get it engineered properly.

I could get someone to do it, but likely there are too many variables to make it a viable option. Better to just wait for Win to do it.

Down the road I could see sending one of my extra arm boards out to a machine shop and letting them use it to make me a stainless version under no time constraints, just to see if there could be better performance.

I am always curious about materials for arm boards. In my experience stainless has been hard to beat.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Peter,

All the Durand tone arms are surface mount, 4 screw holes. So it’s plot the holes, then drill and tap the holes. But drilling and tapping slate, and slate where it has to be right the first time, is where it gets complicated.

I’m using existing slate arm boards, and these are not only a contoured shape and stepped edge, but also have legs attached and ground wires too. So if I were to find someone new to do this, there would be lots of hassle to get it engineered properly.

I could get someone to do it, but likely there are too many variables to make it a viable option. Better to just wait for Win to do it.

Down the road I could see sending one of my extra arm boards out to a machine shop and letting them use it to make me a stainless version under no time constraints, just to see if there could be better performance.

I am always curious about materials for arm boards. In my experience stainless has been hard to beat.

Mike - can’t they just drill the slate and insert a metal thread that is bonded to the slate with epoxy? Not got the tapping slate issue that way.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Mike - can’t they just drill the slate and insert a metal thread that is bonded to the slate with epoxy? Not got the tapping slate issue that way.

Win cautioned me that he should be the one to drill these arm boards. Beyond that I can’t speculate what the options might be.

Understand I have zero woodworking skills or any sort of talents for building things. I’m a good tool gopher and tool accumulater and can clean up after wards. I stay in my lane.

I know you can do these things and your ideas are probably doable.
 

PeterA

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I’m using existing slate arm boards, and these are not only a contoured shape and stepped edge, but also have legs attached and ground wires too. So if I were to find someone new to do this, there would be lots of hassle to get it engineered properly.

Thanks Mike. I'm not suggesting you have someone else tap the slate. Win is the guy for that job. Just mentioning that people seem busy (based on my own experience trying to find a machinist to do my small job) and it therefore takes time to get completed, what seems fairly simple to do. I agree that slate is what you should start with. Other options may or may not be worth considering far down the road.
 

Audiophile Bill

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arm boards will arrive tomorrow.

Great news, Mike. Please send nice pics when installed with arm as well as early listening impressions. I for one take great vicarious pleasure awaiting the great result lol.
 

Mike Lavigne

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power.......nuance.......texture........timbre.........tone........density.......organic......energy........are my first impressions.

every note seems to pack just a bigger punch, with greater weight, and richer tone than previous experiences. not thick, or rounded, or muddled.

my head is a bit scrambled trying to understand what i'm hearing. but i'm in no hurry to sort out my impressions. just going to let it come to me and enjoy the ride. and i am very happy with what i'm hearing. ecstatic.:):):)

saskia-10.jpg saskia-11.jpg saskia-12.jpg
 

Ovenmitt

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That looks beautiful! I have always wanted to hear a Saskia. Mike, I think I’ve seen a Garrard in your system at some point. Is there any resemblance between the two? Is Winn still building Saskia’s?
 

spiritofmusic

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Mike, this density thing is really what sets idlers aside from other drive types. I'm aware that this can be at the expense of some loss of air and micro detail. My guess is that Win's use of huge mass re his slate plinth is "grounding" the sound and eliminating those issues that lead to idler being less ideal, esp the transmission of idler wheel vibrations to the stylus. If this noise is managed way better in the Saskia than even examples like Dobbins/Artisan Fidelity 301s, then maybe Saskia has cracked the winning formula of all the advantages of idler drive w none of the disadvantages.
 

Violetmachan

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Looks awesome mike
All black, very sauve and sleek and simple . I am sure it’s already beginning to sound like Christmas !
Strange the NVS look alien....war of the worlds like....
Would be great to hear your choice on Anna Diamond to the MC century
Looking foword to your passionate synopsis of Saskia, tosca arm and your cartridge
Is win still making the Saskia 2
Cheers
Sam
 

Mike Lavigne

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That looks beautiful! I have always wanted to hear a Saskia. Mike, I think I’ve seen a Garrard in your system at some point. Is there any resemblance between the two? Is Winn still building Saskia’s?

thanks. yes; owned the Dobbins Garrard for 2+ years 2009-2011. loved that turntable for it's energy and push to the music, but in the context of higher level tt's was lacking refinement and detail. i can hear the positive qualities of the Garrard in the Saskia, but at this very early time with the Saskia i have not yet found any information limitation penalty with it. i'm hearing way into the musical essence.

right now listening to a Bartok string quartet (Quatuor Vegh on Valois Box Set) and the texture is intoxicating. i'm main-lining delicate musical goodness.

Looks awesome mike
All black, very sauve and sleek and simple . I am sure it’s already beginning to sound like Christmas !
Strange the NVS look alien....war of the worlds like....

agree that the Saskia and NVS come from totally different design viewpoints, and both are successful with them.

Would be great to hear your choice on Anna Diamond to the MC century

unlikely i will end up with both here to A/B, but i did spend three days at Axpona listening quite a bit to the Century......which pushed me to acquire the Anna D. from Fremer's Stereophile review they are very close, the Anna D. a small degree faster and more detailed; the Century a slight bit more authoritative. with the Saskia an authority champ and then some, likely the Anna D brings the right answer for me.

Looking foword to your passionate synopsis of Saskia, tosca arm and your cartridge
Is win still making the Saskia 2
Cheers
Sam

Win Tinnon continues to build the Saskia. here is what he told me yesterday on the phone. (1)-the price is $53k. (2)-it will take a year give or take after an order is placed., and (3) he won't take a deposit, he would do it on the honor system. he does not care for the stress of a deposit.

if anyone desires to hear the Saskia before ordering they are welcome here.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Mike, with that revelation of listening to Bartok, you've lost the goodwill of the Bela dissers on this forum LOL.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Mike, this density thing is really what sets idlers aside from other drive types. I'm aware that this can be at the expense of some loss of air and micro detail. My guess is that Win's use of huge mass re his slate plinth is "grounding" the sound and eliminating those issues that lead to idler being less ideal, esp the transmission of idler wheel vibrations to the stylus. If this noise is managed way better in the Saskia than even examples like Dobbins/Artisan Fidelity 301s, then maybe Saskia has cracked the winning formula of all the advantages of idler drive w none of the disadvantages.

Marc, yes.....the density/texture is really something......reminds me of 1/2" tape. not sure i've heard any another tt do it like this. (note i said 'not sure'.....not proclaiming anything).

until i have more listening time and some back and forth with the NVS i'm not drawing any larger conclusions. i've had no sense of any lack of detail, air and sparkle on the top end or lack of openness. it does space and scale, maybe in a slightly more ferocious and focused way, slightly less expansive way, than the NVS.........in the brief forays last night with large scale music. it soars and does not seem to run out of steam and hangs together and the sound stage retains organization (not a trivial issue).

i will say that the Saskia does something with piano that is other-worldly. it somehow communicates the full body and harmonic humanity of it. the sustain is spooky good. like those suspension of disbelief moments but they go on forever.

i'm trying to wrap my head around it fully.
 
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microstrip

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Mike, with that revelation of listening to Bartok, you've lost the goodwill of the Bela dissers on this forum LOL.

Particularly with the lovely string quartets - they are supposed to give you headache and nausea ... :) The Vegh Quartet are great on these mastepieces.

BTW, the EMT927 also sounded great in quartets and small chamber music.
 

spiritofmusic

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Mike, Ked's comments about live unamplified ie classical concerts being the measure of a good component/system has made more sense now that we're going to way more live string quartet, piano recital, big band/brass band, choral, and the odd symphony, on average fortnightly.

One of my (pointless Ra would say, just enjoy the music, but hey I'm an OCD audiofool) habits is to take in the whole ambience, then concentrate on individual instruments and voices, and ballpark compare this to what I hear in my rim/idler at home, belt drives and DDs I've demoed, and the sublime digital (SGM/Aqua) I'm hugely familiar with.

Maybe many others are picking up on pinpoint soundstaging and air. This is kinda the domain of belt drive and DD, the latter also re timing. For me, I can't easily get past the wall of sound density of live, and the absolute dominance of energy and timbral discrimination. And for me this is best represented by idler. The note is everything.

Now idlers then start to fail in putting together the micro detail aspects that completes the illusion of live, noise and rumble on the level below Saskia just preventing that final barrier to total immersion being broken. But even at level of Dobbins 301, and my 170kg slate based rim/idler, that "truth" of "the note" and image density is totally addictive. Belt drives and DDs may give more of everything else, but the Irresistible Importance of Idler Insistence is Irrefutable (IIIII lol).

I've spent a small fortune maxxing my rim/idler via Stacore and bespoke motor to speed controller and Symposium isolation under rim drive pod to reduce noise issues getting to stylus to open up my sound, and Saskia looks like its also taken the OTT slate route as well. And a lot more I'm sure.

So Mike, I have some idea what you're hearing, and can well imagine this image density, note driven presentation is bringing to yr enjoyment, obv maxxed to the hilt by yr amazing system and room.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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it's been a week now listening to the Saskia, with the Durand Tosca tone arm and Ortofon Anna Diamond cartridge. i've also listened to the NVS with the Durand Telos Sapphire and GFS.......some.

how does the Saskia compare to the NVS? just how good/great is the Saskia? what level of turntables does the Saskia compare to? and to a lesser extent how good is the Durand Tosca? the Anna D?

these are all questions i'm not prepared to address now. i'm just enjoying the music and glad to be not be thinking about gear arriving and logistics. Jazdoc came over Sunday and helped me tweak the set-ups, i really appreciated it.

i'll just say that for now my feelings are that i've not ever enjoyed any turntable as much as i'm enjoying the Saskia. is the Saskia that good? is that the Tosca/Anna D? the combination of all of it and where my system is? just my mood? i don't know.

my preliminary view is that the Saskia at least equals the NVS with image location and air on top. also that the Saskia has a lower noise floor. and more detail (more about that below). along with all the expected things you would get from the last word in idlers.

what keeps sucking me into the emotional musical core of things is this whole density issue and the consequences of it. and how the density combined with this whole otherworldly speed solidity just cuts to the core of the suspension of disbelief. it's so real. that added level of detail density blows up previous memory references of all sorts of musical moments.

speaking of detail; i'm coming to appreciate how the added detail in the density is a different thing than maybe what i previously perceived as more detailed. i'm really struggling to put this into words. i will come back to this when the clouds in my mind part and i find a way to describe it. the Saskia is changing my view on this.

answering questions about how the Saskia compares seems almost sacrilegious.

at some point i will put my objective hat on and wade into answering the questions. and i hope i have some visitors who listen and can share their perspectives. i put no limits on where the Saskia might rank. i know i love it. if you get an opportunity to listen to a Saskia i highly recommend doing it.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Thank you, Mike, for this preliminary impressionistic report. I am sure firmer conclusions will crystallize in your mind over time.

You write of the Saskia’s “otherworldly speed solidity.” But I thought speed solidity was one of the best attributes of the direct drive NVS?
 

Mike Lavigne

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ignoring levels of execution, and just examining the basics of tt drive design, the idler has a mechanical advantage over a direct drive in that it has leverage on the platter. it also has disadvantages in the noise transfer......and at modest price points, precision. the trick then for the idler is to maintain that leverage, while somehow overcoming that noise issue.

the direct drive has the design advantage over the belt in terms of drive, but belts can use lots of mass, or flywheels, or other approaches to optimize their drive.

but at the end of the day that leverage of an idler trumps other approaches for ultimate levels of speed solidity. groove modulations have no chance to affect speed on an idler. that leverage does bring an energy that is hard to deny.

my previous posts on advantages of direct drive were relative to belts driven tt's, and it's been lots of years since i've really pushed that perspective. my views are less dogmatic today. and there are more very interesting belt driven tt's than direct drives right now.
 
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