Saskia model two

fbhifi

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Dec 20, 2013
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Mike, I’ve read with great interest your comments on direct drive vs. idler drive. I do not understand your what you mean when you say “ the idler has a mechanical advantage over a direct drive in that it has leverage on the platter.” Please explain what you mean by leverage on the platter.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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An idler drive pushes, a belt drive pulls, a DD/mag drive impulses.

We're back to the wonderful world of the relevance of high sustained torque of idlers maybe being the best motive force to get the platter to speed, and keep the speed right, thru stylus drag etc.

Maybe it's not just a function of moment to moment, and l/t speed accuracy, but idler's ability to instantaneously deal w transient aberrations and ongoing discontinuities like stylus drag, that make the best idler presentations so compelling.

And this I believe is what gives the more visceral, dense, tone as king, the note is everything, presentation of idlers. That Mike is reporting.

And Mike has just bought (one of) the best example of idler.

So, speed stability is now exemplary on belt drives like Vyger and AS, and DDs like NVS and GP Monaco. Evidently so on Saskia too. Maybe it is critical how it's achieved, not just the basic measured stats.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Mike, I’ve read with great interest your comments on direct drive vs. idler drive. I do not understand your what you mean when you say “ the idler has a mechanical advantage over a direct drive in that it has leverage on the platter.” Please explain what you mean by leverage on the platter.

Marc (Spirit) above addresses this question. an idler pushes.

in essence it has 'leverage'. the tension between the bearing (actually not a bearing but a gimbal/yoke design) of the drive wheel of pushing gear and the inner platter surface is a more mechanically robust direct connection provides greater push. like a smooth tire on a perfectly level grippy road. this compared to the DD motor spinning the platter though a central shaft or a belt using platter mass for inertia to 'carry' the speed.

three valid ways to do it each with their own value. and execution really determining the ultimate outcome.

in the case of the Saskia model two one of the many design approaches to address the noise and speed stability challenges is that the drive wheel does not use a conventional shaft/bearing, it uses a gimbal yoke bushing design to keep that drive energy steady. the wheel is made of 6061 aluminum, and the drive surface is rubber nitrile. it's driven by a 3-phase Pabst motor originally designed to drive big video or film reels for the colorists to color black and white film. it's an industrial precision motor over designed for this purpose.
 

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spiritofmusic

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Mike, the Saskia sounds super impressive. It's hugely positive that all the positives of a "driven" sound that you've highlighted (the density thing) are not blighted by the very disadvantages idlers traditionally are guilty of (idler wheel-generated rumble).

Can you fill us in a little more on the other aspects that make the Saskia the success it is? How it achieves isolation? Speed accuracy? Etc
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Mike, the Saskia sounds super impressive. It's hugely positive that all the positives of a "driven" sound that you've highlighted (the density thing) are not blighted by the very disadvantages idlers traditionally are guilty of (idler wheel-generated rumble).

Can you fill us in a little more on the other aspects that make the Saskia the success it is? How it achieves isolation? Speed accuracy? Etc

my thinking on the Saskia is in a state of flux as i explore more music and get my head around it. since it is a change in presentation for me i need to take my time to be able to sort out 'different' from 'improved'. and i've only used one tone arm and one cartridge so far. and not yet experimented with anything but my Adona granite shelf.

all that said here some random thoughts in my effort to answer your questions.

the Saskia projects that sense of commanding authority that you hear from the tip top echelon of tt's. there is no mistaking it. does it have more or less of this in degrees compared to other's? can't answer that. but it seems to be doing that thing. is this because it weighs 250 pounds? is it the Pabst motor? something about the idler design? don't know.

the Saskia projects a very holographic sound stage and the stage is even more of a 'reach out and touch it' sort of presentation. likely the density and weight of these images has something to do with a greater degree of reality with this.

attention to resonance attenuation, yet also attention to a lively and energetic presentation, is the twin pronged challenge for every tt. the massive one piece slate upper plinth likely gives the arm board and platter an ideal platform to sound great. the arm board design makes it easy to switch arms, but also is extremely solid.

the slate one piece lower plinth holds the motor, and i know there are multiple things happening connecting the upper and lower plinths. lots of resonance control involved there. the footer towers might extend through the lower plinth (maybe not touching it) and connect directly to the upper plinth. that's just me looking at it. and the footers themselves are 'stillpoint' type designs that are easily adjusted for height. i'm very impressed by the level of image focus and nuance i hear. so i'm not sure how much my Taiko Tana could help, or even if it will help at all. i will try it at some point. but if it never improved on resonance isolation i'm now hearing i would not have a problem with that.

i'm already over-the-moon on my perception of musical timing and things like sustain and decay, and how rock solid and steady they are. Win did explain to me a bunch of stuff about the motor controller which honestly went over my head. the post above ( https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/saskia-model-two.28727/page-4#post-594860 ) gets into some details on the idler wheel. the way the Saskia works is that (1) i turn on the motor controller, (2) press the button on the front of the controller and (3) choose a speed. this starts the motor. then (4) i flip the lever to engage the idler wheel with the platter. it starts very slowly and (5) in about 20 seconds is up to speed.

after that, i leave the motor going for the whole session. changing speeds is just one button, and then in about 5 seconds i have a different speed. the spindle is taller than typical to make it easier for switching sides while the platter is moving. even though i've never had a tt where you keep the platter moving before, after 10 days i've had zero issues switching records. the platter has a friendly design which has slanted sides that guide your fingers to the edge of the pressing to naturally pull it up, and really it's very easy.

i've tried my Durand record weight on and off and cannot hear any difference. so for now i'm not using it with the Saskia.

i hope that's enough Saskia details to scratch that itch.;)
 
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jespera

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power.......nuance.......texture........timbre.........tone........density.......organic......energy........are my first impressions.

every note seems to pack just a bigger punch, with greater weight, and richer tone than previous experiences. not thick, or rounded, or muddled.

my head is a bit scrambled trying to understand what i'm hearing. but i'm in no hurry to sort out my impressions. just going to let it come to me and enjoy the ride. and i am very happy with what i'm hearing. ecstatic.:):):)

View attachment 56237 View attachment 56238 View attachment 56239

Idlers rule. Belt drives are for little girls.

You sound like me when i got my first lenco.

Beautiful table. Whats the wattage of the motor and the weight of the platter?

Jesper
 

Tango

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I sure hope your Saskia doesn't sound like a Lenco Mike.

Tang :)
 
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spiritofmusic

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Tang, my guess is you're not 100% correct.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Idlers rule. Belt drives are for little girls.

You sound like me when i got my first lenco.

Beautiful table. Whats the wattage of the motor and the weight of the platter?

Jesper

Jesper,

let's not start a food fight :rolleyes: here, ok? :oops:. or.....at least start your own thread for that sort of stuff.:)

i love iders too, and while i've heard belt drives do the 'wah, wah' sour thing on sustains, i've also heard that same belt drive get that fixed and be plenty solid sounding. if not quite idler level. better/best belt drives are very solid sounding on speed to my ears.

i have to admit i've not enjoyed time with a Lenco yet, but i understand that they can be stellar.

while Win told me the motor is a 3-phase Pabst built to turn large film reels for constant industrial type usage, he never mentioned the wattage. when i speak to him next time i will ask he about that. as i recall Win said the platter weighs around 40 pounds, and the weight is mostly at the periphery to mimic a string drive high mass belt drive in terms of inertia....which was one of his target design references.

I sure hope your Saskia doesn't sound like a Lenco Mike.

Tang :)

:)

everyone behave. but maybe not completely.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Mike, the second favourite activity of this forum is parsing yr words.

On digital v analog. And now idler v belt.

No need to be too coy.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Mike, the second favourite activity of this forum is parsing yr words.

On digital v analog. And now idler v belt.

No need to be too coy.

What's the first and third favorite?
 

spiritofmusic

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Oh, I think you know Ked.

Taking odds on when I again say "well, that's me done for good".

And totting up your cost of travelling w no tt at home to show.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Mike, keep up reports on yr new baby, esp interesting compares and contrasts w NVS, and what you hear from other tts you're familiar with.

Fwiw, it's perfectly ok to make conclusions as to how you feel this SOTA idler transmits enjoyment differently or superior to other drive types.
 

jespera

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Jan 12, 2018
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Jesper,

let's not start a food fight :rolleyes: here, ok? :oops:. or.....at least start your own thread for that sort of stuff.:)

i love iders too, and while i've heard belt drives do the 'wah, wah' sour thing on sustains, i've also heard that same belt drive get that fixed and be plenty solid sounding. if not quite idler level. better/best belt drives are very solid sounding on speed to my ears.

i have to admit i've not enjoyed time with a Lenco yet, but i understand that they can be stellar.

while Win told me the motor is a 3-phase Pabst built to turn large film reels for constant industrial type usage, he never mentioned the wattage. when i speak to him next time i will ask he about that. as i recall Win said the platter weighs around 40 pounds, and the weight is mostly at the periphery to mimic a string drive high mass belt drive in terms of inertia....which was one of his target design references.



:)

everyone behave. but maybe not completely.


Ok we’ll save the ultimate idler vs elastic band debate for later.

Jesper
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Jesper, me and you love idlers. Loud and proud. Mike needs to come out nice and gentle. He strayed this way a few years back w his Dobbins 301, and now he's back. Prepare for phrases caveated on not being judgemental as superior to belt or DD. But me and you know the magic that Mike is experiencing w Saskia that is not happening w other drive types.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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XV, ROFL is high torque. Lenco, anyone?

In analog, what goes around (33.33/45.15/78rpm), comes around.
 

Mike Lavigne

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drive dogma just get's in the way, as entertaining as it is. sorry; i'm normally not a button pusher.

agree on all the idler positive comments, and what they do does get me excited. but am more in the enjoyment mode, than the investigation mode. and until i switch my Tosca/Anna D back to the NVS i can't really speak to that compare.

i'm still learning about how the Saskia works on all my music.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Mike, that's ok. You're the perfect gentleman, never likely to shoot from the hip, always likely never to be controversial for it's own sake.

Me? I'm more likely to draw more radical conclusions from yr words. And extrapolate from my own experience of 6 years of continuous rim drive/idler listening.

And everything I read from yr words is what I, and every other idler owner is hearing, albeit at a less stellar level, Saskia being the current SOTA (alongside maybe Blackstone).

I'm finding yr words so reflect my day to day experience w my rim/idler, and so even if you're too polite and non controversial in not drawing hard and fast conclusions, I'm not that diplomatic.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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Hi Mike,

Is the Saskia AC or DC motor? How is speed controlled accurately in this implementation? I know the Blackstone uses an optical encoder type approach. Wondered whether Saskia did similar.

Cheers
 

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