Saskia model two

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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Do the phone apps give the same reading?

Not a comment on what you're doing: I'm curious if there is variability across the use of phone apps for measuring speed, not because of the apps but because of the phones. I'd like to see an experiment with say ten instances of the same phone and app simultaneously, to assess variability and consistency
I almost always use RPM because I prefer it to Turntabulator but I know there are proponents of the latter. RPM can be calibrated.

If I set the speed with the strobe, it is accurately reflected in RPM.

But the important thing about the apps for my use is not so much the absolute speed value (although I use it) but the relative - this is how I can base my comment on stability over time. I also like to use the wow and flutter measurements. FWIW - the RPM database largely concurs with the data as the speed & W+F as measured by Hifi News in relative terms.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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Thanks David. What is the optimal way for controlling frequency in TT external power supplies?
This method is only good for AC motors not DC. There are several companies making aftermarket frequency controllers with basic user programming ability for turntables or you can buy a lab unit with higher wattage for turntables like EMT 927. It all depends on what you need. There’s nothing exotic about frequency controllers/regenerators they’ve been around for a very long time and are quite common just like everything else you need to find the good dependable ones.

FYI, frequency generators don’t negate the need for feedback loops and constant adjustments, other things are needed for independent speed stability.

david
 
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Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
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This method is only good for AC motors not DC. There are several companies making aftermarket frequency controllers with basic user programming ability for turntables or you can buy a lab unit with higher wattage for turntables like EMT 927. It all depends on what you need. There’s nothing exotic about frequency controllers/regenerators they’ve been around for a very long time and are quite common just like everything else you need to find the good dependable ones.

FYI, frequency generators don’t negate the need for feedback loops and constant adjustments, other things are needed for independent speed stability.

david
I am getting my hands on a Gates CB-500 and that uses the very large AC Ashland motor. Just trying to work out the best possible way of getting our 230v/50hz to a rock solid stable 120v / 60hz with ability to fine tune for absolutely speed accuracy.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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I am getting my hands on a Gates CB-500 and that uses the very large AC Ashland motor. Just trying to work out the best possible way of getting our 230v/50hz to a rock solid stable 120v / 60hz with ability to fine tune for absolutely speed accuracy.
Better PM me for that don’t want to further derail this thread.

David
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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David, it's hardly derailing this thread. I find it fascinating there is less curiosity for this tt, and interested comments, than Mike's NVS, or had Mike gone for the more obvious option of cutting edge belt drive like yr AS.

Mike can't add too much tech input, and there's v little other outlet for idler drive input on WBF. So, of course chat will extend to other idlers.

I'm sure chat will revert to Saskia buzz when Mike reports back.

So I hope it's ok to chat more on idlers if not always Saskia. There are way more threads that are way way more OT than this one, and much is to be learnt from them.

Why not this one also?
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Cherry wood plinted hammertone garrard 301, corian plinted ptp lenco 9+12, 2 lightly pimped lenco L70's.
You can see the rest in my profile.

Jesper
nice Jesper, how can you go wrong with that line up?

you can't.

now we need a pic or three! we love idlers! (edit; now i see the new thread about idlers, maybe post the pics there?)
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Mike, you've got a captive audience of wide-eyed and slack-jawed idler fanboys here waiting for more info on Saskia.

Please post more listening impressions, comparisons to NVS, your holistic take on the sound, and more technical info from Win.

Suspension/isolation, motor details, speed control method, how Win has addressed the Achilles Heel of idlers ie rumble.

We're all ears.
 
Likes: gilles13
Mar 12, 2017
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Dear Mike,

How is the presentation of Saskia comparing to the NVS? Just in term of image size, more up front or less upfront, the stage width, depth. My 927 in comparison to the AS2000 present the overall sound in a noticeably larger scale. To me the AS2000 has a more realistic image size. Any jazz trio or chamber sound more fool me real. I think a man size sound image is an essential element in suspension of disbelief. I have not much experience with idler. I have only heard a Lenco and two Garrard from other people's system. I am wondering if other idlers also present sound in a larger scale?

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Dear Marc and Tang,

sorry for the delay in my responses here. honestly i've had a football weekend (i'm a serious American style College and NFL junkie) plus listening visitors on Saturday (jazdoc + Joel Durand) afternoon. also, trying to get my brain around the vdh Master Signature.......which i've set aside for now to come back to later.

Mike, you've got a captive audience of wide-eyed and slack-jawed idler fanboys here waiting for more info on Saskia.

Please post more listening impressions, comparisons to NVS, your holistic take on the sound, and more technical info from Win.

Suspension/isolation, motor details, speed control method, how Win has addressed the Achilles Heel of idlers ie rumble.

We're all ears.
Dear Mike,

How is the presentation of Saskia comparing to the NVS? Just in term of image size, more up front or less upfront, the stage width, depth. My 927 in comparison to the AS2000 present the overall sound in a noticeably larger scale. To me the AS2000 has a more realistic image size. Any jazz trio or chamber sound more fool me real. I think a man size sound image is an essential element in suspension of disbelief. I have not much experience with idler. I have only heard a Lenco and two Garrard from other people's system. I am wondering if other idlers also present sound in a larger scale?

Kind regards,
Tang
on Saturday we did switch the Durand Tosca + Anna D. back to the NVS from the Saskia (where it's been for a few weeks) and listened. up till now the Anna D. was only on the Saskia. now it's on the NVS. i can make some provisional comments about things as they look right now.

the presentations of the Saskia and NVS/Tana are different. but not night and day different. more that each has characteristics/attributes where they really excell, but even where they fall slightly short of the other they are still very good. no warts are exposed.

the NVS has a larger soundstage, more expansive. the Saskia is a little more focused, relatively compact. jazdoc liked that images are more correctly sized on the Saskia, it's something important to him. image location is excellent on both, a little more image density and weight with the Saskia, a bit more soaring every molecule in the room energized and carried away sense with the NVS. both these tt's have very low noise floors, but surprisingly the Saskia seems slightly lower. i need much more time to see if that holds true. but this is no one trick idler pony.

both plenty of energy. a bit more weight and flow from the Saskia, but better top to bottom coherence and complete frequency response from the NVS. it's more complete and organized. if you never heard the NVS you would consider the Saskia a big music champ; but then the NVS just takes it farther. it goes and goes.

did i say that the Saskia is a flow champ?......it absolutely is! sustains are fantastic/special/otherworldly! the NVS is good in this area but there is a difference.

cello growl is a different animal on each. more granular on the NVS, more dense and physical on the Saskia. i love them both.

piano's, guitar, horns, and vocals are great on each. maybe for small music the Saskia might get deeper into these things than the NVS. that added dollop of density taking things up a notch in emotional connection.

delicacy comes across differently on each. the NVS more airy, the Saskia more tonal weight, and more energy projecting.

Bass is really excellent on both; the Saskia a bit more weight, but the NVS maybe more agile. i need much more time with this issue. and the Tana shelf under the NVS likely makes a big difference here. could it help the Saskia? at some point i need to try it.

it's important to note that where i say that the density, weight or tone of the Saskia is better, it's not by much. the NVS has plenty of weight, density and tonal richness.....but the Saskia is just a little better. at least that is how it sounds to my ears in this system.

i'm feeling that both are essential to my listening at this point. i need to get the Durand Telos arm board back from Win so i can install the Telos Sapphire on the Saskia and run that while i spend more time back on the NVS with the Tosca/Anna D.

i hear no limitations to what the Saskia can do. it's an all around super sounding tt that can play classical and big stuff, have plenty of inner detail and texture, nothing rounded or blunted. and maybe the Tana active could take it further?

i think what is also really apparent is that while there is a great buzz about the sexy/iconic/mysterious Saskia idler that is well earned, the NVS is really a fantastic all around performer that kicks some serious tt ass......especially combined with the Taiko Tana active isolation. i'd bet plenty of people would have a tough time 'blind' I.D.ing which tt they were listening to with most music. and at the top of the tt heap that is how it should be. and these are right up there.

and.........there are horses for courses. will every system have a complimentary environment for every tt? or....as one's system and tastes evolve, will a tt be able to keep up? you graduate from pop, to jazz, to small classical, to big classical......will the tt deliver? the NVS will, and has.....in spades.
 
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Jun 13, 2013
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Fantastic Mike. Just to be sure, NVS is on the Tana, Saskia has nothing dedicated under it?
 

bonzo75

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Fantastic Mike. Just to be sure, NVS is on the Tana, Saskia has nothing dedicated under it?
It has the hopes of dedicated idler enthusiasts under it
 

bonzo75

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Mike, small classical to large classical is not necessarily a graduation though does require some different strengths. Small classical might require more nuance in the same system, not so much requiring the scale and structured authority aspect, so maybe a linear tracker on the NVS and a cart more nuanced than GFS, like VDH, while GFS doing the big thing on the top pivot?
 

bonzo75

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Also, a room, like most rooms, which has lesser resolution, and lesser ability to show scale might prefer the density as the other attributes might not be as apparent
 
Jun 13, 2013
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Well Ked, Mike's is the room where gear sounds better that even the designer heard it in the designer's lesser room. There's gotta be scope for Saskia on Tana to bridge the slight performance gap to what NVS has the edge on and maybe go beyond, while upping the ante on what it already excels at. I'm sure Mike will report that if it's true.
 
Feb 4, 2014
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Bill, that is scary good. I wonder how much harder it is to get a high torque idler like Saskia to the same level of accuracy.

I'm about to buy the current iteration of Roadrunner speed measuring device. My idler/rim Salvation needs a nudge to correct every other day.
It’s about time Marc ;) Let me know your variations.
 
Jun 13, 2013
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Oh, if my tt has one drawback, it's the lack of absolutely rock solid speed. Its measured as 0.3%. I think mine is more accurate than that. A gentle nudge every few days recorrects it.

Roadrunner will let me know for sure. Next on the list.
 
Jun 13, 2013
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