Saskia model two

spiritofmusic

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Mike, I'm not the one who's religious on such stringently controlled A/Bs. Guys like PeterA are the ones who often intimate a compare can't be strictly accurate in drawing hard and fast conclusions unless all is equivalent. Me? I'm very happy to draw reasonable inferences from just the kind of comparison you've recently made.

One thing you can elaborate on. Your initial impressions on the Lamms in yr room was whole favourable, but it soon became apparent that they were best suited to more intimate material, less so to full tilt wildly dynamic orchestral, the latter better served by yr Dart monos, which were also not embarassed by the Lamms on that smaller scale music. The conclusion being the Darts were universally better suited to a broader range of music IN YOUR ROOM.

My take on what you've just described on the NVS v Saskia looks reminiscent of the Darts v Lamms situation. The Saskia proving brilliant on smaller scale stuff, the NVS doing the broad spectrum music better, while also great at intimacy.

Is it fair or accurate to draw parallels?
 

dminches

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Not to take things off on a tangent but I don't get why people are searching for or in need of such exact "experiments" by other people. No one here has Mike's ears or preferences and no one will be listening to his stuff in his room on a regular basis. Even if Mike "concludes" that he prefers one set up over another, that is just his preference. I realize it carries some weight since Mike has listened to a lot of gear, but I would think people would be satisfied with general impressions. At least I am.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Mike, I'm not the one who's religious on such stringently controlled A/Bs. Guys like PeterA are the ones who often intimate a compare can't be strictly accurate in drawing hard and fast conclusions unless all is equivalent. Me? I'm very happy to draw reasonable inferences from just the kind of comparison you've recently made.

One thing you can elaborate on. Your initial impressions on the Lamms in yr room was whole favourable, but it soon became apparent that they were best suited to more intimate material, less so to full tilt wildly dynamic orchestral, the latter better served by yr Dart monos, which were also not embarassed by the Lamms on that smaller scale music. The conclusion being the Darts were universally better suited to a broader range of music IN YOUR ROOM.

My take on what you've just described on the NVS v Saskia looks reminiscent of the Darts v Lamms situation. The Saskia proving brilliant on smaller scale stuff, the NVS doing the broad spectrum music better, while also great at intimacy.

Is it fair or accurate to draw parallels?

yes; i do see some connection to the same idea of the Lamm <-> darTZeel in the Saskia<->NVS as far as types of music playing to strengths, and the dart-NVS being better all around. that's fair. and exactly what attracted me to the Saskia for this access to that more narrowly focused musical viewpoint. (the Lamm-Saskia or NVS-dartzeel comparisons are anything but simple, and i don't mean to infer they are).

the idea of choices works more elegantly with multiple turntables than multiple exotic 4 box uber expensive amplifiers. 10 seconds to switch inputs verses hours of effort to switch amplifiers. then working to get things synergized and working right.

one is fun and one is a pain in the ass. i was in love with the 'idea' of always having a high level tube amplifier sitting there to use when the mood struck me. until...........i wasn't.
 
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Ron Resnick

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. . . i was in love with the 'idea' of always having a high level tube amplifier sitting there to use when the mood struck me. until...........i wasn't.


I understand this from each of the various possible points of view. It has taken quite a lot to move me off of my view that I want only one cartridge on one tonearm on one turntable. I am resolved, and excited about, having two different cartridges on two different tonearms (of radically different design) on the same turntable.

That leaves my distant desire/curiosity to someday try a high-power (100 watts or so) SET or PSET on the Pendragons — for exactly the same set of reasons you were itching to try ML3s.

I am certain you are happy you tried the ML3s (even though you ultimately not to keep them).
 

Mike Lavigne

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I understand this from each of the various possible points of view. It has taken quite a lot to move me off of my view that I want only one cartridge on one tonearm on one turntable. I am resolved, and excited about, having two different cartridges on two different tonearms (of radically different design) on the same turntable.

That leaves my distant desire/curiosity to someday try a high-power (100 watts or so) SET or PSET on the Pendragons — for exactly the same set of reasons you were itching to try ML3s.

I am certain you are happy you tried the ML3s (even though you ultimately not to keep them).

i loved every minute of my time with the ML3's. it allowed me to immerse myself into that musical vibe and understand (to a large degree if not the full signal path Lamm/Horns view) what that is all about.....and move on from that. having the big VAC Statement 450's was another data point helpful to acquire. i no longer lust for a tube amplifier as a choice for my system. i'm cured.;)
 

bonzo75

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I understand this from each of the various possible points of view. It has taken quite a lot to move me off of my view that I want only one cartridge on one tonearm on one turntable. I am resolved, and excited about, having two different cartridges on two different tonearms (of radically different design) on the same turntable.

That leaves my distant desire/curiosity to someday try a high-power (100 watts or so) SET or PSET on the Pendragons — for exactly the same set of reasons you were itching to try ML3s.

I am certain you are happy you tried the ML3s (even though you ultimately not to keep them).

I think you confuse wanting to try a SET vs wanting to try a SET on the Pendragons. The latter does not let you try a SET. It sets up a trial for failure. To try a SET, you should have two systems, the second one should be a speaker that works for a SET. High power SETs do not have the virtues of good low power SETs. Time to go past NATs

For example, if you wanted to try two carts, in some cases you could do it with having only one tonearm and one IO eclipse, but for some carts the arm and phono would be incompatible, like trying a koetsu or a red sparrow in an SME 3012r IO set up.
 
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Tango

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i loved every minute of my time with the ML3's. it allowed me to immerse myself into that musical vibe and understand (to a large degree if not the full signal path Lamm/Horns view) what that is all about.....and move on from that. having the big VAC Statement 450's was another data point helpful to acquire. i no longer lust for a tube amplifier as a choice for my system. i'm cured.;)
You are one person with such vast and in depth experience having gone through so many battles sir. It would take all that to become crystal clear in your ultimate truth in sound. Been there done that until it is unshakable. But the devil in you must still be there somewhere...may be only put to sleep sir :D.

Kindest regards,
Tang
 

Mike Lavigne

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You are one person with such vast and in depth experience having gone through so many battles sir. It would take all that to become crystal clear in your ultimate truth in sound. Been there done that until it is unshakable. But the devil in you must still be there somewhere...may be only put to sleep sir :D.

Kindest regards,
Tang

dear Tang,

thank you for the kind words, you could have said i've made all the mistakes (or most of them anyway:oops:) already. but you spun it positively. others might not be so generous.

certainly deep appreciation for top flight tube electronics is in my soul, as it's my reference sound since long ago. what i said is i'm cured from the desire to have a tube amp for my particular system. my view is that in total i have the part of tube amps that is essential for me already. and now when i need (the music is served by) a little more of that 'stuff' i can fire up the Saskia and i have it.

there are still dark, devilish musical memories of how the ML3's did particular things that are haunting.;) i'll not deny it.

your friend,

Mike
 
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spiritofmusic

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Mike, I do believe the only way you really would have decided to sway to the Lamms away from Darts would have been (as a replacement or second system) to go horns. You might have ended up w the same set of dilemmas, but that Lamms/horn based system would have been its own category. Maybe then after several months of ownership and familiarity, you would have found the things yr Darts/MM7s do so well at were just as well covered by the new system, and indeed the new system would excel across the board. Certainly Pnoes or the big Cessaros w Lamms in an existing system and room so tuned to produce a delectable sound could easily be fantastic.

Cessaros or Pnoes on Darts, or MM7s on Lamms, both setups not quite hitting the very heights that are possible.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Mike, I do believe the only way you really would have decided to sway to the Lamms away from Darts would have been (as a replacement or second system) to go horns. You might have ended up w the same set of dilemmas, but that Lamms/horn based system would have been its own category. Maybe then after several months of ownership and familiarity, you would have found the things yr Darts/MM7s do so well at were just as well covered by the new system, and indeed the new system would excel across the board. Certainly Pnoes or the big Cessaros w Lamms in an existing system and room so tuned to produce a delectable sound could easily be fantastic.

Cessaros or Pnoes on Darts, or MM7s on Lamms, both setups not quite hitting the very heights that are possible.

do i really believe that a re-boot with a horn based system would make me completely happy? hell no.

not saying i don't like horns or any other approach, just that i like the direction i've gone.

does anyone agree with me? i don't worry about that.
 

spiritofmusic

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Mike, noone is going to disagree w you. That's gotta be one of the silliest propositions ever Lol.

But surely the Lamms would have shown at their most impressive, and most suited, in your room on horns that would be most suited to them.

If that equation doesn't fit you personally, it doesn't mean the equation OR you is wrong.

But if as I surmised from yr conclusions at the end of yr Lamms experience, that the Lamms-MM7s synergy didn't QUITE hit the heights over the full spectrum of genres AND output levels you expect in yr sound, my take is that Lamms on horns COULD have more universal appeal. But if Lamms-horns as a total concept STILL don't tick ALL yr boxes, then this direction is a worthy effort, but only partial success. And at yr exalted level Mike, partial won't cut it.

As you say, it's more acceptable/practical to run a second tt like Saskia that again may not tick every box as effortlessly as yr NVS. Here, it is possible to run different flavours. Just not at the amps-spkrs interface.
 

Mike Lavigne

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well. i've heard the Lamm's sound great on horns. wonderful. so i know what that is. don't need horns in my room to get the differences. admit there would be differences......pluses and minuses for that matter.
 

Ron Resnick

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I think you confuse wanting to try a SET vs wanting to try a SET on the Pendragons. The latter does not let you try a SET. It sets up a trial for failure. To try a SET, you should have two systems, the second one should be a speaker that works for a SET. High power SETs do not have the virtues of good low power SETs.

. . .

I understand where you are coming from, and I do not disagree. I agree that high power SETs do not have the virtues of the best low power SETs.

But my SET interest would try to answer a different question: the same exact question (itch) Mike tried to answer (scratch) with ML3s.

I simply am curious to compare on vocals and small ensembles 100 to 120 watts of high power SET or PSET to 750 watts of push-pull tubes. As with Mike, an SET or PSET would not replace the Siegfried IIs; it would be in addition to the VTLs to maximize the beauty and glow of vocals and small groups of acoustic instruments — to hear a slightly different interpretation of these kinds of music.
 

spiritofmusic

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But Ron, you heard Mike's practical objection to the Lamms. To run them alongside the Darts, and swap btwn them depending on favoured genre of music, is a royal PITA, necessitating cable swaps, tubes warm up, other logistical hassles. Whereas running two tts/carts is a doddle for him, since his Dart pre has 2 phonos.

It looks like it's just not practical to rope in alternate amps on a free ranging listening session. You'd kinda need Lamm days and Darts days to alternate. Audiofools are already OCD'd to the max. Alternate amps days would surely look certifiable Lol.
 

Ron Resnick

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But Ron, you heard Mike's practical objection to the Lamms. To run them alongside the Darts, and swap btwn them depending on favoured genre of music, is a royal PITA, necessitating cable swaps, tubes warm up, other logistical hassles. Whereas running two tts/carts is a doddle for him, since his Dart pre has 2 phonos.

It looks like it's just not practical to rope in alternate amps on a free ranging listening session. You'd kinda need Lamm days and Darts days to alternate. Audiofools are already OCD'd to the max. Alternate amps days would surely look certifiable Lol.

Yes, switching amps is a practical problem, for sure!

And when I visited Mike he graciously switched among three different pairs of amps for me!
 
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spiritofmusic

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And tube amps need to powered for 40-60 mins to really sound optimal. Are you really looking at having fully powered pairs of tubed monoblocks just so that some material can have the best presentation?

I think St. Greta of Thunberg might have something to say about that...
 
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bonzo75

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I understand where you are coming from, and I do not disagree. I agree that high power SETs do not have the virtues of the best low power SETs.

But my SET interest would try to answer a different question: the same exact question (itch) Mike tried to answer (scratch) with ML3s.

I simply am curious to compare on vocals and small ensembles 100 to 120 watts of high power SET or PSET to 750 watts of push-pull tubes. As with Mike, an SET or PSET would not replace the Siegfried IIs; it would be in addition to the VTLs to maximize the beauty and glow of vocals and small groups of acoustic instruments — to hear a slightly different interpretation of these kinds of music.

I don't think vocals and small ensembles sound good with SETs if the speakers are under driven. It sounds too colored and bloaty, or lifeless
 
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microstrip

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My very personal and subjective opinion on the Lamm ML3's subject : IMHO no one listening to the ML3's without the LL1 or the LL1.1 preamplifier has fully experienced the capabilities of the ML3. In fact I think that the LL1 is the masterpiece of Vladimir Lamm. And yes, I agree that Lamm ML3's are not adequate amplifiers for people wanting to listen at warp9.
 

Ron Resnick

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Steve Williams

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My very personal and subjective opinion on the Lamm ML3's subject : IMHO no one listening to the ML3's without the LL1 or the LL1.1 preamplifier has fully experienced the capabilities of the ML3. In fact I think that the LL1 is the masterpiece of Vladimir Lamm. And yes, I agree that Lamm ML3's are not adequate amplifiers for people wanting to listen at warp9.
Totally agree
 

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