SET amp owners thread
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Finally some good news on my Allnic A-6000s, which have been unreliable enough that I gave up on them a month or so ago.. Then I bought the pair of HHR TLS-2s, the Walsh-driver-type system I fell in love with soon after the above-mentioned abandonment.. Those TLS-2s are here...
...and sounding FABULOUS.. I tried them with one 30Watt Viva and another amp, which encouraged me, so I got the '6000s running and installed them.. WOW...60WATTS-max. times 2 are plenty enough to drive these 86dB-insensitive speakers in my room to plenty-high levels FOR ME, and I'll be happily keeping them.. FWIW, both of the last-2 amp failures came when I reinstalled a Psvane 300B to test the amp; the tubes arced and burned more than one resistor...but all better now.. I still have plans to improve some frontend caps, etc., but these 'will do'.
With the Emission Labs 300B-XLSs and a few damping blocks I've had for years; the blocks have Herbies white pads on their bottoms.
...and sounding FABULOUS.. I tried them with one 30Watt Viva and another amp, which encouraged me, so I got the '6000s running and installed them.. WOW...60WATTS-max. times 2 are plenty enough to drive these 86dB-insensitive speakers in my room to plenty-high levels FOR ME, and I'll be happily keeping them.. FWIW, both of the last-2 amp failures came when I reinstalled a Psvane 300B to test the amp; the tubes arced and burned more than one resistor...but all better now.. I still have plans to improve some frontend caps, etc., but these 'will do'.
With the Emission Labs 300B-XLSs and a few damping blocks I've had for years; the blocks have Herbies white pads on their bottoms.
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Over the weekend we compared the new WE 300b to EML XLS and Elrog in the Alieno. Preferred the WE. You guys should try them.
I’m really happy with the WE 300Bs, am thinking of building a 300B drives 300B amp as my system project this year and would be running again with WE’s
I do not doubt for a minute that the W.E. 300b is a very fine tube. One thing I have learned is certain tubes are going to have better synergy with some amplifiers compared with others.
Problem is you do not know until you try. This can become rather expensive in a hurry with the upper tier 300bs. And as to be expected with audio endeavors, impressions./opinions inevitably vary.
Some listeners report superb sound with the W.E. and then a few were underwhelmed. Who can account for the myriad of variables that are involved in these disparities?
One thing is always for sure and constant, nothing exists that will ever please everyone. I suspect that the W.E.300b is an excellent option.
Charles
Problem is you do not know until you try. This can become rather expensive in a hurry with the upper tier 300bs. And as to be expected with audio endeavors, impressions./opinions inevitably vary.
Some listeners report superb sound with the W.E. and then a few were underwhelmed. Who can account for the myriad of variables that are involved in these disparities?
One thing is always for sure and constant, nothing exists that will ever please everyone. I suspect that the W.E.300b is an excellent option.
Charles
I wanted to put the new WE 300B in my amp. I showed Audio Tekne the details and they said something along the line that they didn’t follow the original WE spec. It was super technical and way over my head. I emailed WE some questions but didn’t really get an answer to what Audio Tekne was saying so I lost interest. Maybe someday I’ll try and figure this out again.
That seems a bit odd. If any company would have the correct original specifications it’d be Western Electric. It doesn’t seem that they would deviate.
Charles
I went back through and read the old emails again. Yes, they of course have the original spec but are they meeting that spec in manufacturing? That was the question from Audio Tekne. I showed them a bunch of measurement sheets from people’s for sale ads and it didn’t seem to be the case. Audio Tekne also mentioned the importance of the filament and if you dig inside the WE site they mention using a new secret sauce coating for the filament.
WE told me that users have told them that the WE 300Bs didn't work well in Allnic A-6000s, so I bought EMLs and got high reliability and availability and 0.8dB more headroom (not that anyone could hear the latter).
This is a bit specious. Thing is, do you try different amplifiers like Allnic, Viva, etc, in unoptimised state, same with turntables and unoptimised arms and carts, and think you have tried? Or do you take a specific component and roll to find the optimal match. Few have the budget and resources to do the latter. Therefore they rush things to their place and often let go things unoptimised. Underdriven apogees, DIY horns with bad crossovers, poor to average tubes, wrong arm and cart or phono examples are quite common. So in this case I would spend or organize by contacting audiophiles who own the other tubes to compare EML, WE, KR or Elrog. Others have done this with their tubes, including on amps, on Lampi, on 211s (the delta in 211s even on expensive gear like Kondo moving from stock to Amperex is huge, and also requires effort for biasing for each valve), 2a3, 45s, etc.
It is of no value to make comments like everyone has their own taste so all works for different people and no one knows till they have tried and everything is in that individual's opinion. That goes without saying. Jefferey is putting a lot of money and effort into trying different amps, that's to be respected, why leave it half way without trying different valves as well? That is like buying Techdas, Vyger, CS Port, GPA Monaco etc with Graham Elite, SME 3012r, SAT, Schroeder, and others, then just trying just one cartridge across all. If someone has budget issues they won't even start with multiple amps or TT, and have basic stuff with JJ 300b valves.
Of you can roll and compare different brands of 300bs (Or any type of tube) . I’ve done this as have many people, there’s nothing new here.
My point is that the upper tier level 300b tubes are expensive compared to most other tubes. I’ve had numerous 300bs in my SET mono blocks over the years and subsequently was able to form an opinion of all of the ones I heard.
I am sure that Jeff has the means to obtain what ever tubes he cares to try in his amplifiers. I stand by my contention that synergy plays a role as to which tube will sound better in a given amplifier. this seems pretty obvious to me, no one tube is ideal/best for every single amplifier.
And yes, individual taste and preferences are significant factors that determine decision making and selection. Again, this seems intuitive and obvious. Listeners can hear the exact same set up under the same conditions and there will be a variance among them of opinion and impressions. This is simple reality.
There are no unanimous or undisputed choices in matters of audio and music listening. In this specific case there’s no “king” of all 300b tubes. To the contrary, there are a group of very worthy contenders to be tried and compared. Outcomes will undoubtedly differ.
Charles
My point is that the upper tier level 300b tubes are expensive compared to most other tubes. I’ve had numerous 300bs in my SET mono blocks over the years and subsequently was able to form an opinion of all of the ones I heard.
I am sure that Jeff has the means to obtain what ever tubes he cares to try in his amplifiers. I stand by my contention that synergy plays a role as to which tube will sound better in a given amplifier. this seems pretty obvious to me, no one tube is ideal/best for every single amplifier.
And yes, individual taste and preferences are significant factors that determine decision making and selection. Again, this seems intuitive and obvious. Listeners can hear the exact same set up under the same conditions and there will be a variance among them of opinion and impressions. This is simple reality.
There are no unanimous or undisputed choices in matters of audio and music listening. In this specific case there’s no “king” of all 300b tubes. To the contrary, there are a group of very worthy contenders to be tried and compared. Outcomes will undoubtedly differ.
Charles
'Will do'? I think these amps are jinxed...blew another set of bias resistors, this time while operating a set of EML 300B-XLSs.. But good news of sorts...I've convinced my buddy Jeffrey Glowacki of Sonic Craft to repair and improve them to his satisfaction, at his leasure.. Will be shipping them within a week or so, along with all tubes, parts, etc.. Meanwhile the 140Watts-into-4-or-8 Atma-Sphere MA-1s are back in the system and sounding excellent.
The SE-6C4C M/S monoblocs are SE power amplifiers based on 6C4C triodes. They have two modes, in "Mono" mode, each monobloc has an output power of 10 W, in "Stereo" mode, each monobloc becomes a stereo amplifier with an output power of 2x5 W.
The power supply units of the devices are kenotron, the drivers are made of pentodes, which ensures the best natural sound.
The power supply units of the devices are kenotron, the drivers are made of pentodes, which ensures the best natural sound.
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First time for me in this thread, or with a SET amplifier for that matter.
My setup was (and might be again) a Pass Labs xp22 preamp, a long 40 foot run of mogami balanced cable, Ayon Triton monoblocks running in triode mode (tetrode mode loses the magic), 10 ft synergistic research tungsten speaker cables to Nola metro grande II speakers.
I love the Nola speakers, which image well even close to a back wall on either side of my fireplace (I have no flexibility in placement at all, they must go between the fireplace and the windows, shooting the short way across the living room), and they are visually pleasing so they are a fixed variable here. With a TotalDAC/Taiko Extreme front end, the sound is wonderful, with 3D sound, oodles of low level detail without ever sounding harsh, good dynamics and a very low noise floor.
However as our species is want to do, I went with an audio buddy, who was looking for new equipment, to Bacche Audio where I heard their top of the line speaker driven by 300Bs. The SET sound was intoxicating (I'm preaching to the choir here) and I started looking around (always a dangerous sign). I came across a good deal for a pair of Viva Aurora monoblocks, which would (should) have enough power for the Nola speakers, and voila, I was an SET owner. After a kluge of an installation (picture a plywood ramp covered with a soft blanket, and pushing the amps up the ramp onto my stands), I was in business.
Then a couple of weeks of listening, critical assessment, I had an audio buddy come over for a listening session. In the past, we've had very similar responses to equipment so I tend to trust his judgement (particularly since he so often agrees with what I hear) even if he values some aspects of sound differently.
Compared to the Tritons, the Viva amps have more upper bass and the upper bass through midrange is magical, the best I've ever heard here. Where I really feel vexed is the soundstage and detail. The soundstage is wide but has little depth (great 2D, but not 3D) which I find acceptable on some tracks but a serious limitation on others. I also hear less space and silence between instruments, so that subtle details don't surprise me and bring a smile to my face like the Tritons do. I don't hear the voices and instruments as separated as before, though the mix is still very good sounding. If I hadn't heard what the Tritons could do with 3D imaging and subtle detail, I might not be as finicky. But I'm an audiophile, and therefore I want it all!!!
I want that intoxicating midrange, plus the subtle detail and 3D soundstage.
Certainly one possibility is that the Nola and Viva are not a match made in heaven (where I could in fact have it all).
I am running my pre-amp around 90+ which can get it pretty loud but perhaps I need to be running the amplifiers less hard?
Since the speakers are a done deal here, horns or any other speakers are not an option. Would more power help? The Ayon Vulcan Evo perhaps?
Or maybe my cables or something else is limiting and keeping me from the nirvana I'm searching for.
Any and all advice would be welcome.
edit: as another calibration point, I love Stax headphones, which will give you some insights into my preferences.
My setup was (and might be again) a Pass Labs xp22 preamp, a long 40 foot run of mogami balanced cable, Ayon Triton monoblocks running in triode mode (tetrode mode loses the magic), 10 ft synergistic research tungsten speaker cables to Nola metro grande II speakers.
I love the Nola speakers, which image well even close to a back wall on either side of my fireplace (I have no flexibility in placement at all, they must go between the fireplace and the windows, shooting the short way across the living room), and they are visually pleasing so they are a fixed variable here. With a TotalDAC/Taiko Extreme front end, the sound is wonderful, with 3D sound, oodles of low level detail without ever sounding harsh, good dynamics and a very low noise floor.
However as our species is want to do, I went with an audio buddy, who was looking for new equipment, to Bacche Audio where I heard their top of the line speaker driven by 300Bs. The SET sound was intoxicating (I'm preaching to the choir here) and I started looking around (always a dangerous sign). I came across a good deal for a pair of Viva Aurora monoblocks, which would (should) have enough power for the Nola speakers, and voila, I was an SET owner. After a kluge of an installation (picture a plywood ramp covered with a soft blanket, and pushing the amps up the ramp onto my stands), I was in business.
Then a couple of weeks of listening, critical assessment, I had an audio buddy come over for a listening session. In the past, we've had very similar responses to equipment so I tend to trust his judgement (particularly since he so often agrees with what I hear) even if he values some aspects of sound differently.
Compared to the Tritons, the Viva amps have more upper bass and the upper bass through midrange is magical, the best I've ever heard here. Where I really feel vexed is the soundstage and detail. The soundstage is wide but has little depth (great 2D, but not 3D) which I find acceptable on some tracks but a serious limitation on others. I also hear less space and silence between instruments, so that subtle details don't surprise me and bring a smile to my face like the Tritons do. I don't hear the voices and instruments as separated as before, though the mix is still very good sounding. If I hadn't heard what the Tritons could do with 3D imaging and subtle detail, I might not be as finicky. But I'm an audiophile, and therefore I want it all!!!
I want that intoxicating midrange, plus the subtle detail and 3D soundstage.
Certainly one possibility is that the Nola and Viva are not a match made in heaven (where I could in fact have it all).
I am running my pre-amp around 90+ which can get it pretty loud but perhaps I need to be running the amplifiers less hard?
Since the speakers are a done deal here, horns or any other speakers are not an option. Would more power help? The Ayon Vulcan Evo perhaps?
Or maybe my cables or something else is limiting and keeping me from the nirvana I'm searching for.
Any and all advice would be welcome.
edit: as another calibration point, I love Stax headphones, which will give you some insights into my preferences.
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Hi,
I’m not finding any speaker named “Nola metro grande II.” I am finding something called “Nola Metro Grand Reference 2.” Is this the name of your speaker?
If so, I’m seeing a sensitivity specification of 87dB.
I love the sound of Viva Aurora Monos. But I would never think about driving a speaker this insensitive with only 30 watts.
My speakers are 88dB, and I have trouble talking myself into SET mono amplifiers with 140 watts.
I’m not finding any speaker named “Nola metro grande II.” I am finding something called “Nola Metro Grand Reference 2.” Is this the name of your speaker?
If so, I’m seeing a sensitivity specification of 87dB.
I love the sound of Viva Aurora Monos. But I would never think about driving a speaker this insensitive with only 30 watts.
My speakers are 88dB, and I have trouble talking myself into SET mono amplifiers with 140 watts.
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Thanks Ron. Yes, those are the speakers.
Have you ever tried those 140w amps with your speakers?
The Ayon Tritons are about 60w in class A triode mode. Would you expect 60w of SET power to be worth checking out, or is this just not enough power, end of story. I was quite happy with 60w Tritons but was hoping to maintain their benefits and further improve the midrange,hoping it didn't have to be an either/or choice.
As I have no prior experience with SET, is the lack of ultimate soundstaging/depth and instrumental separation fundamental to SET, or just a result of a mismatched amp/speaker?
Mismatch for sure. Judging by the Stereophile measurements, I suggest your speakers are not candidates for SET amps of any persuasion. They are 7dB-10dB shy in sensitivity for 60watts SET and the impedance/phase plot will likely cause frequency response problems for a lot of SETs given their generally higher output impedance. I've not seen measurements for the amplifier in question so perhaps may be wrong about impedance is this particular instance...but probably not.
SETs are tremendous performers when used appropriately...but can be very ordinary when not used within their limits.
Soundstage/depth and instrument separation are hardly SET amplifier shortcomings. In my SET based audio system these aspects are strengths:
I would attribute your outcome to less than ideal amplifier and speaker paring. I’m familiar with the Viva Aurora and they are terrific with appropriate speakers.
Charles
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