SET amp owners thread

[VinylSavor]

Mayer used Tango and now uses Lundahl after Tango closed.

Why do you keep writing that? It is not true. I never only used Tango and am now not only using Lundahl. I use what I consider a good choice for a given design and cost range.

I still have plenty Tango transformers in stock if someone wants to have those used.
I also use a lot of Tribute output transformers and Hashimoto as well as Intactaudio.
And I did use Tamura and also have plenty Tamura transformers in stock

If a customer has a preference in the choice of transformers he can discuss that with me.

Maybe check with me first before you make public statements about what I use or about technical aspects of my amps

Best regards

Thomas

P.S.: For example check the latest amps which are finished and about to be shipped to their new owner on my blog. They use Tango output transformers:
https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2023/02/the-parallel-singe-ended-6cb5a.html

 

[Amir]

There are many SET amplifiers, many are excellent. You really can't compare to Lamm to a 1.25 watt Thomas Mayer 46 driving Pnoe AER BD4/5 just as you cannot compare it to a 2w 45 amp. I am not interested in comparing Lamm there. And these amps will not drive some of the speakers Lamm drives. I have heard Bionors with all Lamm and with all Kondo G1000-G10-Kagura, and prefer the Kondo system. I have compared Lamm preamp and Kondo M1000, and preferred the M1000. And I am not a Kondo fan either, they are very good in certain ways with the right speaker. Lamm is mostly an US product, and EU is way richer in SETs. Everywhere I look these days, there is a SET. And tons and tons of variety. 45, 46, 2a3, 211, 845, GM70, Eimac, many other tubes, and even on same tube many amps with different flavors.

Your question about bass quality does not even make sense to me. If something was lacking in bass, I understand, once you establish it is not due to mismatch of the amp and the speaker, a mistake often made while auditioning SETs. But then I don't select something just because it has bass. It has to play the entire gamut of the orchestra. There is flow, texture, attack, decay, balance across the spectrum including the bass, transparency to recordings keeping the realism, many things I look for.

If you wanted bass on some of the cones, which some of the Lamm owners tend to have, find yourself an Eimac amp. Trafomatic, NAT, KR, all have good bass at various levels, plus drive and dynamics. All sound different.

Right now I am interested in finding alternatives to the Thomas Mayer 46 on the Pnoe. Because I liked the TM 46 sonically, so I would like to hear what can be better. I am interested in finding, for my own personal use in the future, something that works well with Altec 817 or something like Leif's dual FLH, because these are the best systems I have heard. I am interested to find ideal amps for hORNs Universum, and maybe the Lamm ML2 can be used for some compares there, as it has a bit more grip and drive that the Universums require compared to many other SETs, KR being the other contender in the grip/drive category . And then comparing the Eimac monsters can always be fun. I have heard trafomatic on Cessaros compared to Alienos which were some type of OTLs.

There are just too many high quality options. Find a good SET match for a speaker you like and go town on it

Thanks for writing to answer my question

I know the "Amplifier/Speaker matching" should be perfect before judging any amplifier bass quality.
A wonderful experience was adjusting Audiopax model 88 timbrelock , one knob change the bass and another knob change midrange.

timbrock easily shows how amplifier/speaker matching is important, it is like adjusting camera lens focus.


I have no interest to put other SET amplifiers down and put Lamm up , I am just curious about Lamm transformer design.

I ask again my question :
If you listen to all SETs driving match speakers could you find a better SET than Lamm only in bass quality?

 

[morricab]

Thanks for writing to answer my question

I know the "Amplifier/Speaker matching" should be perfect before judging any amplifier bass quality.
A wonderful experience was adjusting Audiopax model 88 timbrelock , one knob change the bass and another knob change midrange.

timbrock easily shows how amplifier/speaker matching is important, it is like adjusting camera lens focus.


I have no interest to put other SET amplifiers down and put Lamm up , I am just curious about Lamm transformer design.

I ask again my question :
If you listen to all SETs driving match speakers could you find a better SET than Lamm only in bass quality?

The short answer is yes there are other SETs with comparable bass quality and it has a lot to do with the output transformers. For sure not everything but a lot. Having a large and very high quality core is needed to avoid saturation with DC that is on a SET OPT. But a large core can cause problems with HF extension unless special winding techniques are implemented....there are always tradeoffs. It is a lot easier to get a very high quality OPT for a 2 watt amp than for a 20 watt+ SET amp. That said the best bass I have heard from SET is Aries Cerat, Amplifon, NAT, KR Audio and LAMM. Kondo always sounded slightly soft but this is probably more circuit than OPT... I could be wrong...

 

[bonzo75]

Why do you keep writing that? It is not true. I never only used Tango and am now not only using Lundahl. I use what I consider a good choice for a given design and cost range.

I still have plenty Tango transformers in stock if someone wants to have those used.
I also use a lot of Tribute output transformers and Hashimoto as well as Intactaudio.
And I did use Tamura and also have plenty Tamura transformers in stock

If a customer has a preference in the choice of transformers he can discuss that with me.

Maybe check with me first before you make public statements about what I use or about technical aspects of my amps

Best regards

Thomas

P.S.: For example check the latest amps which are finished and about to be shipped to their new owner on my blog. They use Tango output transformers:
https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2023/02/the-parallel-singe-ended-6cb5a.html

Thomas, I understand you take requests from customers, but your default, as mentioned on your website under products, the prices for various copper, silver, etc are for Lundahl? For example, if someone clicks on https://www.vinylsavor.com/en/products/300b/ and looks at those products, the transformers for those prices are Lundahl?

 

[VinylSavor]

Thomas, I understand you take requests from customers, but your default, as mentioned on your website under products, the prices for various copper, silver, etc are for Lundahl? For example, if someone clicks on https://www.vinylsavor.com/en/products/300b/ and looks at those products, the transformers for those prices are Lundahl?

Again wrong and I don't understand why you keep making that claim. You wrote something similar before and I corrected you, yet you repeat it.

None of the amplifiers under the link you posted use Lundahl output transformers. Only the lowest price one uses an interstage transformer from Lundahl all others also have different interstage transformers.

You do not seem to have a deep understanding of my products so I would encourage you to check facts with me before making wrong statements.

I use Lundahl input transormers in some of those since I think they are the best on the market for that application.

I never used Tango in Line preamplifiers since they never made anything which was satisfactory for this application to me.

I mostly use Lundahl chokes everywhere since they are of top quality and offer the highest inductance values at given current specs in the most compact form. That is why you see a lot of Lundahl iron on fotos.

I have stock of out of production Tango, Tribute and Tamura output and interstage transformers for many years of amplifier production. I even have some of the Tango LCR modules for phono stages still in stock as well as some MC input and line input transformers made by Tango.

Best regards

Thomas

 

[bonzo75]

Again wrong and I don't understand why you keep making that claim. You wrote something similar before and I corrected you, yet you repeat it.

None of the amplifiers under the link you posted use Lundahl output transformers. Only the lowest price one uses an interstage transformer from Lundahl all others also have different interstage transformers.

Ok, I thought they were Lundahl output for all in that link, and were changed on request. Thanks for clearing the misunderstanding.

 

[VinylSavor]

Maybe do some proper research before writing about technical facts. It is something different to write about your opinion of the sound of an amplifier which is subjective and thus does not need any fact checking. But when it comes to details about parts used output power or other technical aspects you can simply ask me (or any other manufacturer about whose products you write).

And to come back to the topic of transformers: Lundahl sent me a sampe of a new output transformer for which I proposed the specs. It uses a new winding technique which allows wider band width compared to their other transformers. It is a promising candidate for future use in my 300B amps and also others. But on the other hand I got to use up my stock of all those Tangos, Tamuras and Tributes

Best regards

Thomas

 

[bonzo75]

But on the other hand I got to use up my stock of all those Tangos, Tamuras and Tributes

Does that mean these brands are no longer available in your stock?

 

[VinylSavor]

Does that mean this stock is no longer available?

Huh? Maybe my english is too poor or you are jumping to weird conclusions. I wanted to say before buying stock of the new Lundahl transformer which is extremely promising I rather use my stock of transformers. And I mentioned before there is enough for years of making amps so why should they suddenly not be available

 

[bonzo75]

I wanted to say before buying stock of the new Lundahl transformer which is extremely promising I rather use my stock of transformers

ok thanks for clarifying. The use of the word got in the previous post led to the confusion

 

[jeff1225]

What makes me curious is why Lamm SET amplifiers have very good bass in comparison by other SET amplifiers.
Does it come from output transformer design of lamm?

Lamm SET’s have no better bass than other SET designs. I compared 3 different SET’s on modified Edgar Titians (Lamm ML2, Cyrus Brenneman, and Audionote UK). All three had their merits but we didn’t fine that the Lamm had better bass than the other amps.

 

[Amir]

The short answer is yes there are other SETs with comparable bass quality and it has a lot to do with the output transformers. For sure not everything but a lot. Having a large and very high quality core is needed to avoid saturation with DC that is on a SET OPT. But a large core can cause problems with HF extension unless special winding techniques are implemented....there are always tradeoffs. It is a lot easier to get a very high quality OPT for a 2 watt amp than for a 20 watt+ SET amp. That said the best bass I have heard from SET is Aries Cerat, Amplifon, NAT, KR Audio and LAMM. Kondo always sounded slightly soft but this is probably more circuit than OPT... I could be wrong...

Yes , the SET OPT trade-off is the better bass can cause problems with HF and the interesting thing to me is Lamm does not have this problem and both bass and HF are ok. Again I should say my knowledge is very limited in this subject.
What I see (maybe I am wrong) is Kondo and most other SET amplifiers are not as good as Lamm in both extremes (bass and hf) .
One thing that comes to mind is the feeling of powerful sound (like audio research 650) does not relate to extended bass.

 

[Amir]

Lamm SET’s have no better bass than other SET designs. I compared 3 different SET’s on modified Edgar Titians (Lamm ML2, Cyrus Brenneman, and Audionote UK). All three had their merits but we didn’t fine that the Lamm had better bass than the other amps.

Mike (Audio Federation) is my friend , he has long listening sessions between both Lamm and Audio Note. I have never seen any body prefer bass of Audio note (or kondo) to Lamm.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes , the SET OPT trade-off is the better bass can cause problems with HF and the interesting thing to me is Lamm does not have this problem and both bass and HF are ok. Again I should say my knowledge is very limited in this subject.
What I see (maybe I am wrong) is Kondo and most other SET amplifiers are not as good as Lamm in both extremes (bass and hf) .
One thing that comes to mind is the feeling of powerful sound (like audio research 650) does not relate to extended bass.

why are you so confident of its extensions on both extremes when you said you haven’t heard ml2 and 3? Well you did caveat your post saying you could be wrong too so not sure what to say. Only way is to listen to it next to some others on a variety of speakers and find out.

 

[jeff1225]

Mike (Audio Federation) is my friend , he has long listening sessions between both Lamm and Audio Note. I have never seen any body prefer bass of Audio note (or kondo) to Lamm.

Amir,
There are many variables as the Audio Note UK are low wattage amps vs the relatively high wattage (for SETs) Lamms:

1. What speakers were you listening too?
2. What Audio Note amps were you listening too?

When you discuss SET's you should always be very specific about the tube used and the speakers used. I could imagine that the Audio Note 300b might have softer bass than the Lamm, and probably minimal bass if used on their inefficient Acapella speakers .

We listened to the 2A3 amps, which typically have tighter bass than the 300b, on the very efficient Titans.

 

[bonzo75]

If it was Acapella, that requires loads of drive in case it is silly to state that as a compare

 

[awsmone]

There are many variables as the Audio Note UK are low wattage amps vs the relatively high wattage (for SETs) Lamms:

In terms of dB they are actually in the same play pen, not like 1000 watts !

 

[bonzo75]

In terms of dB they are actually in the same play pen, not like 1000 watts !

it’s not loudness but drive that is usually the issue. To get the ease, linearity, dynamic range, with very low watt amps they seem to work best on speakers requiring less drive. There might be exceptions, but that is generally the case. For example, on tannoys, tune audio anima, trios, universum, I generally prefer amps with more power and drive than flea watts.

 

[awsmone]

it’s not loudness but drive that is usually the issue. To get the ease, linearity, dynamic range, with very low watt amps they seem to work best on speakers requiring less drive. There might be exceptions, but that is generally the case. For example, on tannoys, tune audio anima, trios, universum, I generally prefer amps with more power and drive than flea watts.

watts are also expressible as dB, this is different from loudness, as Thomas Mayer has already pointed out, you often don’t understand the issues you give opinions about , please don’t be so imho official about some of your opinions as facts

 

[bonzo75]

watts are also expressible as dB, this is different from loudness, as Thomas Mayer has already pointed out, you often don’t understand the issues you give opinions about , please don’t be so imho official about some of your opinions as facts

Can you please explain how, from reading 2 watts or 20 watts, you can make out how the amp will move a tough to drive woofer? Your loudness will be as per your gain, and that will depend on rest of the component synergy. But isolating amp, how will you make out if a low watt amp can move your drivers?

Thomas' article http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/01/gain-headroom-and-power.html makes it clear -

"So my next question if I get requirements of 20W or more is about the sensitivity of the speakers used. Surprisingly often I get replies of 96, 98 or even 100dB, yet people think they need 20 or 30W of power per channel. Even if they are not half deaf hard rock head bangers or have 100 square meter lofts to fill with large orchestral music.

So where does this come from? While most often it is simple misinformation where people just don't know how much power they really need, I did experience other cases. People who have highly sensitive speakers (or at least speakers which claim to be highly sensitive) and who have tried several amps and claim that they get better sound from the higher power ones. Quite often, what they really need is a better damping factor, not higher power. Higher power amps typically (not necessarily always) have higher damping factors (lower output impedance) than the average flea power SE amp...
...
Higher power amps typically (not necessarily always) have higher damping factors (lower output impedance) than the average flea power SE amp. I have actually seen SE amps which have output impedances of 5 Ohms and higher on their 8 Ohm outputs. While I don't think that huge damping factors are really necessary, a factor of under 2 ist quite low. Such amps will sound quite different on different speakers. If the speaker has variations in it's impedance curve (and most have), this will result in colorations. While it is difficult to build a SE amp without negative feedback which yields very high damping factors, they can be done such to have at least a reasonable damping factor of say, 3 to 5. In my experience such levels are sufficient to be compatible with a wider range of even 'conventional' speakers. To reach these, higher impedance output transformers are needed. "