SETs and Horns

[petavgeris]

I suppose one's choice is by definition a personal preference. While different components and systems will sound different I don't believe there is one that is singularly "right" - just as there is no singular performance of Beethoven's 6th Symphony that is the right performance - there is no one true example that is right.

Although your comment seen as a whole, is one of the best I have read, I have some things to mention.
The artistic part of a performance has nothing to do with the 'rightness' of the reproduction of this performance. Hope you get what I mean.
Vintage violins for example have gained a unique reputation because they have a distinctive tone of their own. Such a violin in the hands of a top performer is enough to make you break in tears. It is his artistic performance and the uniqueness of the organ that make the real difference.

In order to perceive this uniqueness you need dead flat reproduction component(s), with the minimum signature of their own. In order to enjoy the signature / style / artistic performance of the unique moment that has been captured, you need the minimum 'distortion' of the original signal. It is there exactly that you need experience, knowledge and the ability to distinguish the reproduction 'rightness' among different gear. It is there exactly where most of the Hi-Fi lovers fail.

If you have no goal or intent then it can be whatever strikes your fancy on any given day. And that's fine for some people. However if you have a reference against which you are assessing, then the "right one" may be a function of that - how close to your reference is what you hear from what you have?

If your reference is the sound of live acoustic music how similar is your sound to that? Granted that reproduction wil be distinquishable, how close does your system's sound get to your reference? Different systems can come closer or further. Two different systems can be credibly natural and still sound different.

While there may not be a singular example of a performance of Beethoven's 6th that is the right performance, that, imo, doesn't mean its all subjective. After all, there is a score, the most basic reference. Maybe not the best way to say this but think of a performance as an implementation of a score. Some are better than others. Is it different for reproduction?

Regarding the rest of the comments, related to several loudspeaker brands, all of them impose excessively strong character of their own. In other words, all the mentioned loudspeakers are not a clear window to the actual performance. As previously stated, what could be well expressed in an Avant Garde speaker might not be equally well expressed in a e.g. Wilson loudspeaker and/or vice versa. This is called character, signature, coloration, etc. You can name it the way you prefer... It is a mechanism of induced distortion that the speaker creates on its own. This character is a combination of myriads of parameters that can't be all included in a single equation/model. It's the result itself that counts. And the experienced listener can make no mistake. Usually less than one minute of listening is enough to perceive the rightness and/or abandon the presence of excessive character/signature/coloration/distortion. One minute is IMHO the maximum allowed, no more.

FYI, I have never experienced a speaker released under a currently commercially available scheme, that is a true window to the music, open, transparent and faithful to the source. Never. Sorry guys. I do not have the intention to disappoint you or challenge your ego. If I have to select one and only one currently available speaker, that comes closer to the real thing than all its competitors do, this is easily 'Pnoe' from Arcadian Audio. Very easily. I am not affiliated to Arcadian Audio in any way but I can't lie and can't deviate from what is called truth and reality. There are quite a few guys reading here and know me very well, both in person and through my creations. I simply can't lie or candy cover inner meanings, etc.

On the other hand, I have listened many times to DIY speakers that come so damn close to the real event... All these loudspeakers had vintage gear from Altec, JBL and Western Electric. No single exception. The only commercially available speaker that really blew me away, back those years, before going out of production, was the flagship model of Shindo, equipped with the crazy fully original Altec 515 & 288c, both transformed to field coil drivers. I think the model was named 'Latour' but I can't swear on this...

 

[MarcelNL]

Speaker color is one thing, lack of coherence, bad alignment between different drivers, boom boom bass, volume mismatch between highs and lows, and lack of tone is another

I found out that I'm very sensitive to phase alignment, aka coherence. That is when all other boxes (flat freq characteristic, lack of coloration, and natural reproduction of instruments etc.) have been ticked the most important item for me. Having built a few systems over the years made me lose interest in almost all speakers on offer and made me venture into DIY-ing the type of speakers of past era's when designers were using ears that were accustomed to the natural sound of instruments much more than we are, think early days Western electric, Klangfilm or currently Silbatone. Think HUGE, which has some drawbacks...

Currently working on a FL horn in an open baffle using some full range woofers and a JBL Alnico tweeters on a simple sine cap filter using a bit of exotic wire and a handmade resistor.
I'd love to be able to use Field coil, perhaps when my audio buddy gets his chassis made (he is DIY-ing a FC speaker).

Phase alignment is much easier to sort when not having to filter, you 'just' need to move the tweeter in increments of let's say 0.1mm at a time to find the sweet spots and pick the best one.

 

[bonzo75]

I found out that I'm very sensitive to phase alignment, aka coherence. That is when all other boxes (flat freq characteristic, lack of coloration, and natural reproduction of instruments etc.) have been ticked the most important item for me. Having built a few systems over the years made me lose interest in almost all speakers on offer and made me venture into DIY-ing the type of speakers of past era's when designers were using ears that were accustomed to the natural sound of instruments much more than we are, think early days Western electric, Klangfilm or currently Silbatone. Think HUGE, which has some drawbacks...

Currently working on a FL horn in an open baffle using some full range woofers and a JBL Alnico tweeters on a simple sine cap filter using a bit of exotic wire and a handmade resistor.
I'd love to be able to use Field coil, perhaps when my audio buddy gets his chassis made (he is DIY-ing a FC speaker).

Phase alignment is much easier to sort when not having to filter, you 'just' need to move the tweeter in increments of let's say 0.1mm at a time to find the sweet spots and pick the best one.

All great choices. I travel to Munich only to listen to their different western electrics each year. Please do post details of your horn plans and electronics. How many woofers in your FLH

 

[MarcelNL]

Munich...sigh, those were the days...when you could get around....if the show is a go I plan on visiting!

I'm currently using three 13" full range woofers in what basically is a Klangfilm Bionor, I've dubbed the project 'Trionor'

For now electronics are a borrowed vintage (stock) Klangfilm KL204a amp, using one Ef12k and E2a11. Later, my monster 2.5W Amp project is en-route,...It'll be driven using loads of iron, a yet to be selected driver tube and a triode connected 519/509 (using Kees' special method making it a mesh tube).

 

[Atmasphere]

When one Iisten to the same music reproduced by Wilsons, Magicos , Cessaros, Accapella, AGs with even the same amp and the source - synergy aside- they all sound different . All of them reproduce the music with a specific " colour " , but which one is the "right" one ? Does it really exists ?

I find the better the systems the more they sound the same- like real music. This is not to say I don't hear colorations, but one must be careful to understand that the electronics can add coloration as much as the speakers can and they can do this whether tube or solid state.

The room and setup are of course enormous issues making it harder to do valid comparisons. But I've found I can put together systems that are inexpensive that can easily rival systems that are very expensive- intention trumps cost.

 

[cal3713]

Munich...sigh, those were the days...when you could get around....if the show is a go I plan on visiting!

I'm currently using three 13" full range woofers in what basically is a Klangfilm Bionor, I've dubbed the project 'Trionor'

For now electronics are a borrowed vintage (stock) Klangfilm KL204a amp, using one Ef12k and E2a11. Later, my monster 2.5W Amp project is en-route,...It'll be driven using loads of iron, a yet to be selected driver tube and a triode connected 519/509 (using Kees' special method making it a mesh tube).

What full rangers are you using?

 

[MarcelNL]

Vintage Tesla ARO 835, which was heavily inspired on the delicious KL405 that has become unobtanium/ridiculously expensive.
They have a bit more punch and a little less delicate upper mid yet do very well. In our previous house I had 2 of them each channel mounted in a 'breitstrahlgruppe' fashion mounted in the wall (basically an infinite baffle) with ART 481 modded with a round horn (much akin the WE597) in a sortof d'appolito setup.

 

[petavgeris]

I found out that I'm very sensitive to phase alignment, aka coherence. That is when all other boxes (flat freq characteristic, lack of coloration, and natural reproduction of instruments etc.) have been ticked the most important item for me. Having built a few systems over the years made me lose interest in almost all speakers on offer and made me venture into DIY-ing the type of speakers of past era's when designers were using ears that were accustomed to the natural sound of instruments much more than we are, think early days Western electric, Klangfilm or currently Silbatone. Think HUGE, which has some drawbacks...

One more guy that confirms what I've been telling for more than 10 years. At least, it seems that there are quite a few here in this forum that prefer to write the truth, instead of hiding around, having the preoccupied idea that they will be accused of blaming manufacturers, challenging egos, etc. This is not our intention of course. There comes the time that truth should shine. There exists no preoccupation, inflated ego or selfishness here, just a few open & true words that reflect more than a decade of experience. You can still go and purchase Avant Gardes, Acapellas, Magicos, Wilsons, Focals, whatever you like, but it would be good to know from the very beginning that this is another world that is not at all related to things mentioned in earlier posts. I have listened to many systems around, equipped with loudspeakers like the above ones but I would personally never think of going to purchase any of the ones mentioned above, for the reasons expressed in my previous comment.

It is not a coincidence of course that all the experienced guys that I have met, sooner or later, migrate to Altec/JBL/Klangfilm/Western Electric DIY loudspeakers. It is not a matter of 'if' but only a matter of 'when'. You can't go wrong with any of the above ones, although they possess slightly different virtues and have some drawbacks that IMHO are minimal. What they do is opening a window with unique transparency and faithfulness to the source. The Tesla speakers that were mentioned above are really top performers and of course it's not a coincidence that they sell for big bucks.

Currently working on a FL horn in an open baffle using some full range woofers and a JBL Alnico tweeters on a simple sine cap filter using a bit of exotic wire and a handmade resistor.
I'd love to be able to use Field coil, perhaps when my audio buddy gets his chassis made (he is DIY-ing a FC speaker).

Yes, if you can, go this way, as it really makes a difference!

Phase alignment is much easier to sort when not having to filter, you 'just' need to move the tweeter in increments of let's say 0.1mm at a time to find the sweet spots and pick the best one.

And of course time alignment is really crucial. On your FL horns, pay attention to the TS parameters of the drivers, as not all of them are designed to perform their best under any conditions. Others are designed for OB, others for closed boxes and others for vented boxes. If you need some assistance, do not hesitate to ask.

 

[Solypsa]

.It is not a coincidence of course that all the experienced guys that I have met, sooner or later, migrate to Altec/JBL/Klangfilm/Western Electric DIY loudspeakers. It is not a matter of 'if' but only a matter of 'when'.

I find it very interesting that newly built electronics and sources, and newly built speaker enclosures all find their way into these systems but the loudspeaker drivers...original vintage still seems to rule. I know there was a lot of know how maybe that is gone ( winding, paper etc.) but still no one can make similar or better now? WvL and several Japanese brands all do versions of these drivers but I have little exposure to them ( aside from hearing WvL at Primary Control one time )

Yes, if you can, go this way, as it really makes a difference!

Is there an aspect of the electro-magnet motor design that simply cannot be acheived with a permanent-magnet motor assembly?

 

[Solypsa]

...
Currently working on a FL horn in an open baffle using some full range woofers and a JBL Alnico tweeters on a simple sine cap filter using a bit of exotic wire and a handmade resistor.
...

Are you 'front horn loading' down into true bass region or just mid-bass for the woofers? In other words how big are these beasties

Would love to learn a bit more about this project if you feel like sharing!

 

[tima]

While different components and systems will sound different I don't believe there is one that is singularly "right" - just as there is no singular performance of Beethoven's 6th Symphony that is the right performance - there is no one true example that is right.

Although your comment seen as a whole, is one of the best I have read, I have some things to mention.
The artistic part of a performance has nothing to do with the 'rightness' of the reproduction of this performance. Hope you get what I mean.

Of course. My point was by analogy.

 

[marslo]

As for my approach I do not consider any DIY make as an option when deciding about the gear in my main setup.
I want to keep things simple - I buy the gear and concentrate on synergy and music .
I upgrade the system only if the dealer is ready to make the presentation at my place before I decide and then takes the replaced element as a part of the payment.
I am still busy in my professional life and have no time nor knowlegde for DIY.

To be honest I am skeptical that only old speakers , drivers , tubes or amps reproduce music in the best way.
Silbatone presentation in Munich did not impress me.

 

[MarcelNL]

@Solypsa It's fairly simple to explain; there was a bit of a time warp since Cinema's upgraded from this type of gear (and they did so several times since the early 'talkies').

More often than not the old stuff was thrashed as years passed and nobody even recognized the old gear for what it was, the speakers that were used were LARGE and the new gear coming in was 'newer and better' and also; smaller. Who cared about that old kit of yesterday and where could they store it, especially once the next generation of newer and better came along? (loads of the good stuff was thrashed in the eighties).

Just google Klangfilm Euronor, or have a look at the various Western Electric Horns (Silbatone is making them) to get an idea of the size of speakers. Not many people in their right mind want/can have that sort of stuff in their home...we make fun of WAF but it does exist.

Much of the electronics, hefty tube gear, was scrapped when 'newer and better' tube gear and later transistor and most recently digital gear came along. Who wanted a tube amp in the late seventies, transistors brought us to the moon so they must be better. I assume the drivers could more easily be kept as they are small enough (even that is relative), so more of those survived.

You can still buy the smaller 16mm Klangfilm movie projectors, deliciously over engineered pieces of precision engineering for next to nothing but everything else commands borderline ridiculous prices nowadays. (try find a WE 597 tweeter, or a roll of original speaker wire), so far for every piece of 'that old stuff' I have heard it was clear why it commands high prices...I won't begin to justify the ridiculous price tags, there are many people with more money than taste buying gear they will probably never fully appreciate.
Still, I'm pretty sure that most people will find that something like vintage bell labs paper/silk insulated tinned copper wire sounds amazingly good, same with the mercury filled rectifiers that were mentioned above (they DO sound good). That little backup Klangfilm amp I'm currently using sounds deliciously neutral for what it is.

So mostly newly built electronics and enclosures are used, also because certain modern electronics parts are better and the designs often were far less wideband as we are now accustomed to, and our sources improved. At the same time there are astonishingly few companies making Field coil or other high efficiency speakers, after all; there is little incentive as Amplifier power is readily available and a field coil requires additional electronics.

I have now heard several field coils, mostly vintage but also some new ones (f.e. Wolf von Langa), a field coil sounds so much more open and cleaner than a speaker using magnets, a FC speaker has a drive that can best be compared to the large transcription turn tables.

My FL OB horns are 2.20 by 2.20 meters and I plan to integrate them in a wall in our new (to be built) home, creating an infinite open baffle with FL horns sunk in. Effectively the horn sections are supporting the mid bass region of the woofers.

 

[marslo]

@MarcelNL
I am in touch with Polish distributor to organize the audition of small WVL speakers in my second system . The opinions I read about them are very positive.

 

[MarcelNL]

@marslo by all means have a listen, also try to listen to Atelier Rullit if you can
Anyone here who heard a FC TT element? (I'm abstaining from vinyl but interested)

 

[petavgeris]

I find it very interesting that newly built electronics and sources, and newly built speaker enclosures all find their way into these systems but the loudspeaker drivers...original vintage still seems to rule.

Yes, it is so easily explainable. In the past, in the era where the amplifiers were pushing low or moderate power output, high efficiency loudspeakers were necessary. When power amps of 100, 200 or 500 Watts of output capability appeared, the necessity for high efficiency vanished. So almost every manufacturer nowadays uses low sensitivity speakers just to make the life of himself and his customer's easier and trouble free. But along with this trouble-freeness comes the trouble of bad sound... The lower the efficiency the lower the output SPL and the lower the fidelity of sound. It costs nothing to manufacture 'exotic' drivers made out from 'exotic' composite materials. Really nothing! Whoever is in the industry knows very well already. Just try to ask for quotation for big motors, with lots of Maxwells, able to give high flux densities and you will end up at least 3x the original cost. Some magnets like the AlNiCo or rare earths rise the cost to extreme. And even further, field coil speakers with ARMCO iron or Permendure poles and plates cost a fortune.
All this is intentionally kept outside the radar of the average consumer and modern marketing has come to place. Hi-fashion composite materials modelled with FEA, etc... High Fidelity and poor magnetics are two contradictory aspects. No exception. It does not come as a surprise that *ALL* those Altec/JBL/Klangfilm/WE drivers are equipped with at least monstrous AlNiCo magnets and pure iron poles & top plates. And of course the old WEs with the field coil motors...

I know there was a lot of know how maybe that is gone ( winding, paper etc.) but still no one can make similar or better now? WvL and several Japanese brands all do versions of these drivers but I have little exposure to them ( aside from hearing WvL at Primary Control one time )

Not at all! Whoever wants to learn, can find all applicable information in less than a week. Everything is available! The reason that all these drivers are gone is one and only one: MONEY!

Is there an aspect of the electro-magnet motor design that simply cannot be acheived with a permanent-magnet motor assembly?

Precisely. Numerous! And on top of all these, you have the ability to fine tube the T/S parameters of woofers for the enclosure that you are going to use. Or even design the cabinet with the T/S parameters of your preference.

 

[Solypsa]

@petavgeris and @MarcelNL
Thank you both for your thoughtful replies. I know this topology demands huge size loudspeakers and this is not practical.

@petavgeris in your experience has anyone made new field coil woofers ( lets set aside compression drivers for the moment ) equal to the original theater gear?

 

[petavgeris]

@petavgeris and @MarcelNL
Thank you both for your thoughtful replies. I know this topology demands huge size loudspeakers and this is not practical.

@petavgeris in your experience has anyone made new field coil woofers ( lets set aside compression drivers for the moment ) equal to the original theater gear?

Yes, I think that Wolf Von Langa has manufactured field coil under hung woofers. I have not listened to them. And of course the manufacturer of the best field coil woofer I have experienced, under a commercial scheme. The flagship model of Shindo, think it was named Latour.

Modern variants come from GIP in Japan. They are replicas of WE drivers. I have been told by the most trustful source out there that these from GIP are the best replica drivers of old Western Electric, though not the same in performance.

 

[bonzo75]

WVL used to make field coils based on Altec now he makes his own. GIP, line magnetic, some small DIY people make their own field coils.

It is not necessary that something is good just because it is field coil. Line magnetic replicas don't sound anything like GIP

You could be happy with non field coils drivers as well

 

[MarcelNL]

Audio note made some too, though I haven't heard them, Rullit, there are bound to be more