SETs and Horns

[Audiophile Bill]

Supravox are still making field coil versions of their drivers. The EXC range. I am about to try their 285 version after trying their regular 285.

 

[Solypsa]

There are quite a few. I was curious as to @petavgeris experience with ( in his opinion ) their success.

Anyone heard Katy Fertin's EMS drivers?

 

[Solypsa]

Modern variants come from GIP in Japan. They are replicas of WE drivers. I have been told by the most trustful source out there that these from GIP are the best replica drivers of old Western Electric, though not the same in performance.

This is exactly my curiosity. Surely GIP is making 'cost no object' products. Yet they cannot equal the original ( per your friends opinion ). So interesting...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

There are quite a few. I was curious as to @petavgeris experience with ( in his opinion ) their success.

Anyone heard Katy Fertin's EMS drivers?

Was looking into the Fertin drivers for FLH application. They had too low sensitivity (~93dB) and low power handling for what I was looking at doing.
They have a strong following though.

 

[petavgeris]

This is exactly my curiosity. Surely GIP is making 'cost no object' products. Yet they cannot equal the original ( per your friends opinion ). So interesting...

Yes. GIPs are the best replicas by far. No comparison to other stuff.
When it comes to comparing against the real thing, well, they lose. The WE guy is not a friend, he is the NO. 1 WE guy in the world. He owns everything, he knows everything, he has listened to everything, he has built everything, so I have no clues not to trust him blindly! He told me that "while they are amazingly sounding, they lose only against the originals. Easily. 5 seconds listening session. Period. End of story."
But you don't necessarily need to go the crazy FC way, you can stick to old 'n good AlNiCo drivers from Altec/JBL/Klangfilm. The FC way is really difficult when done from scratch. I have done my drawings and I'm about to place the order for ARMCO iron pretty soon. I can upload some stuff when ready, if you want. I can also give you some guidance, if not for everybody, at least for the interested ones...

Have a nice afternoon...

 

[DasguteOhr]

Looks good 18" field coil woofer nice specs

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reverb.com

 

[christoph]

@Solypsa It's fairly simple to explain; there was a bit of a time warp since Cinema's upgraded from this type of gear (and they did so several times since the early 'talkies').

More often than not the old stuff was thrashed as years passed and nobody even recognized the old gear for what it was, the speakers that were used were LARGE and the new gear coming in was 'newer and better' and also; smaller. Who cared about that old kit of yesterday and where could they store it, especially once the next generation of newer and better came along? (loads of the good stuff was thrashed in the eighties).

Just google Klangfilm Euronor, or have a look at the various Western Electric Horns (Silbatone is making them) to get an idea of the size of speakers. Not many people in their right mind want/can have that sort of stuff in their home...we make fun of WAF but it does exist.

Much of the electronics, hefty tube gear, was scrapped when 'newer and better' tube gear and later transistor and most recently digital gear came along. Who wanted a tube amp in the late seventies, transistors brought us to the moon so they must be better. I assume the drivers could more easily be kept as they are small enough (even that is relative), so more of those survived.

You can still buy the smaller 16mm Klangfilm movie projectors, deliciously over engineered pieces of precision engineering for next to nothing but everything else commands borderline ridiculous prices nowadays. (try find a WE 597 tweeter, or a roll of original speaker wire), so far for every piece of 'that old stuff' I have heard it was clear why it commands high prices...I won't begin to justify the ridiculous price tags, there are many people with more money than taste buying gear they will probably never fully appreciate.
Still, I'm pretty sure that most people will find that something like vintage bell labs paper/silk insulated tinned copper wire sounds amazingly good, same with the mercury filled rectifiers that were mentioned above (they DO sound good). That little backup Klangfilm amp I'm currently using sounds deliciously neutral for what it is.

So mostly newly built electronics and enclosures are used, also because certain modern electronics parts are better and the designs often were far less wideband as we are now accustomed to, and our sources improved. At the same time there are astonishingly few companies making Field coil or other high efficiency speakers, after all; there is little incentive as Amplifier power is readily available and a field coil requires additional electronics.

I have now heard several field coils, mostly vintage but also some new ones (f.e. Wolf von Langa), a field coil sounds so much more open and cleaner than a speaker using magnets, a FC speaker has a drive that can best be compared to the large transcription turn tables.

My FL OB horns are 2.20 by 2.20 meters and I plan to integrate them in a wall in our new (to be built) home, creating an infinite open baffle with FL horns sunk in. Effectively the horn sections are supporting the mid bass region of the woofers.

Absolutely great posting
Thanks a lot!

 

[christoph]

Yes. GIPs are the best replicas by far. No comparison to other stuff.
When it comes to comparing against the real thing, well, they lose. The WE guy is not a friend, he is the NO. 1 WE guy in the world. He owns everything, he knows everything, he has listened to everything, he has built everything, so I have no clues not to trust him blindly! He told me that "while they are amazingly sounding, they lose only against the originals. Easily. 5 seconds listening session. Period. End of story."
But you don't necessarily need to go the crazy FC way, you can stick to old 'n good AlNiCo drivers from Altec/JBL/Klangfilm. The FC way is really difficult when done from scratch. I have done my drawings and I'm about to place the order for ARMCO iron pretty soon. I can upload some stuff when ready, if you want. I can also give you some guidance, if not for everybody, at least for the interested ones...

Have a nice afternoon...

Please do

 

[MarcelNL]

Yes. GIPs are the best replicas by far. No comparison to other stuff.
When it comes to comparing against the real thing, well, they lose. The WE guy is not a friend, he is the NO. 1 WE guy in the world. He owns everything, he knows everything, he has listened to everything, he has built everything, so I have no clues not to trust him blindly! He told me that "while they are amazingly sounding, they lose only against the originals. Easily. 5 seconds listening session. Period. End of story."
But you don't necessarily need to go the crazy FC way, you can stick to old 'n good AlNiCo drivers from Altec/JBL/Klangfilm. The FC way is really difficult when done from scratch. I have done my drawings and I'm about to place the order for ARMCO iron pretty soon. I can upload some stuff when ready, if you want. I can also give you some guidance, if not for everybody, at least for the interested ones...

Have a nice afternoon...

definitely interested!

 

[bonzo75]

Audio note made some too, though I haven't heard them, Rullit, there are bound to be more

Dave slagle also tried some

 

[cal3713]

definitely interested!

+3. A add me to the interested party list...

 

[Solypsa]

Dave slagle also tried some

His field coil cartridge is one that I am eager to see...

 

[Atmasphere]

It is not a coincidence of course that all the experienced guys that I have met, sooner or later, migrate to Altec/JBL/Klangfilm/Western Electric DIY loudspeakers. It is not a matter of 'if' but only a matter of 'when'. You can't go wrong with any of the above ones, although they possess slightly different virtues and have some drawbacks that IMHO are minimal. What they do is opening a window with unique transparency and faithfulness to the source.

This statement is false.

There are two problems with the vintage designs that were never overcome. The first is that the distortion of the horn is very dependent on its design, and that's a tricky enough thing that it wasn't really solved until computers had enough power to do so easily. The second problem is breakups! These can cause harshness. Modern materials for compression diaphrams such as berlliyum can be pistonic enough that the first breakup is at 35KHz or above. In a nutshell you simply aren't going to see diaphragms like that available for vintage horn systems unless someone make them on a custom/replacement basis. But I can tell you from personal experience that the difference is pretty obvious! When there are no breakups the system becomes smoother and more detailed in a way that the older diaphragms simply can't do.

Is there an aspect of the electro-magnet motor design that simply cannot be acheived with a permanent-magnet motor assembly?

Yes. Field coils are to cone speakers what ESLs are to planars in that they are inherently faster and lower distortion. This is because in any permanent magent motor, the field sags a bit when current is passed through the voice coil. Although Alnico is the least powerful magnet, it can be very well focused in the VC gap and sags the least of the permanent magnets. That is why its the preferred magnet structure. But if you have a power supply (especially a regulated power supply) the magnetic field won't have to sag at all! This results in higher speed and lower distortion. Field coils share this propertly with ESLs which also employ a power supply for the motive force and not surprisingly is why they can sound just as fast as ESLs.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

This statement is false.

There are two problems with the vintage designs that were never overcome. The first is that the distortion of the horn is very dependent on its design, and that's a tricky enough thing that it wasn't really solved until computers had enough power to do so easily. The second problem is breakups! These can cause harshness. Modern materials for compression diaphrams such as berlliyum can be pistonic enough that the first breakup is at 35KHz or above. In a nutshell you simply aren't going to see diaphragms like that available for vintage horn systems unless someone make them on a custom/replacement basis. But I can tell you from personal experience that the difference is pretty obvious! When there are no breakups the system becomes smoother and more detailed in a way that the older diaphragms simply can't do.


Yes. Field coils are to cone speakers what ESLs are to planars in that they are inherently faster and lower distortion. This is because in any permanent magent motor, the field sags a bit when current is passed through the voice coil. Although Alnico is the least powerful magnet, it can be very well focused in the VC gap and sags the least of the permanent magnets. That is why its the preferred magnet structure. But if you have a power supply (especially a regulated power supply) the magnetic field won't have to sag at all! This results in higher speed and lower distortion. Field coils share this propertly with ESLs which also employ a power supply for the motive force and not surprisingly is why they can sound just as fast as ESLs.

Not sure whether you have come across the rare Samarium Cobalt magnet before but they are even better than alnico at retaining their field at increased temperatures.

 

[cal3713]

Ralph, perhaps you know the details, but unless I'm misreading their website, Classic Audio is selling field coil woofers and field coil beryllium compression drivers for diy use: http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?fs=2&upper=25&content=26

Edit. Sorry, the CA website isn't linking to the desired page. Click "Components" on the right side menu.

 

[Atmasphere]

Yes, I have a set of his T-3s which have the field coil powered beryllium diaphragms. The horns are computer optimized too- where that really made a difference was the interface between the throat and mouth. I got to hear all the 'before' and 'after' stuff one night after hours at THE Show in Las Vegas.

Not sure whether you have come across the rare Samarium Cobalt magnet before but they are even better than alnico at retaining their field at increased temperatures.

Once going to field coil I found it hard to go back.

 

[microstrip]

Yes. Field coils are to cone speakers what ESLs are to planars in that they are inherently faster and lower distortion. This is because in any permanent magent motor, the field sags a bit when current is passed through the voice coil. Although Alnico is the least powerful magnet, it can be very well focused in the VC gap and sags the least of the permanent magnets. That is why its the preferred magnet structure. But if you have a power supply (especially a regulated power supply) the magnetic field won't have to sag at all! This results in higher speed and lower distortion. Field coils share this propertly with ESLs which also employ a power supply for the motive force and not surprisingly is why they can sound just as fast as ESLs.

Very interesting. Considering the typical power supplies that were used in vintage speakers - having significant output impedance, very different from the regulated power supplies your refer, I would expect that vintage field coils have higher sag that permanent magnet speakers.

Do you have any references on the Alnico speakers having lower sag that other more powerful modern magnets?

 

[microstrip]

Ralph, perhaps you know the details, but unless I'm misreading their website, Classic Audio is selling field coil woofers and field coil beryllium compression drivers for diy use: http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?fs=2&upper=25&content=26

Edit. Sorry, the CA website isn't linking to the desired page. Click "Components" on the right side menu.

Thanks. Do you have an idea of their typical prices? (the "Where to buy" button is empty" )

 

[cal3713]

Yes, I have a set of his T-3s which have the field coil powered beryllium diaphragms. The horns are computer optimized too- where that really made a difference was the interface between the throat and mouth. I got to hear all the 'before' and 'after' stuff one night after hours at THE Show in Las Vegas.

Once going to field coil I found it hard to go back.

Any ballpark

Thanks. Do you have an idea of their typical prices? (the "Where to buy" button is empty" )

I was going to ask the same thing...

 

[DasguteOhr]

has anyone ever tried to convert a horn driver to a Field coil like this one?
Altec are expensive and rare, is equipped with a new aluminum diaphragm.

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