To Morricab's point the other aspect of having an external phono is that when you are not dissatisfied you can change it more easily. I did not like Bill's Kuzma Stabi Ref/Triplanar/Lyra Leos set up when he had the BMC, and then he switched to the Aesthetix IO signature and it was awesome.
Should I stay, or should I go?
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
- Start date
To Morricab's point the other aspect of having an external phono is that when you are not dissatisfied you can change it more easily. I did not like Bill's Kuzma Stabi Ref/Triplanar/Lyra Leos set up when he had the BMC, and then he switched to the Aesthetix IO signature and it was awesome.
spiritofmusic said:
spiritofmusic said:
Hey Spirit,
I think these two paragraphs above are key. Like I mentioned earlier, if the deficiencies can’t be overcome by simply swapping out parts and/or tweaking, then I’d personally look at abandoning putting more resources into your existing turntable. A fully tweaked-out and optimised “X” is still never going to be a Kuzma or a Kronos. If that’s indeed the type of sound you want from vinyl then it’s unlikely any other turntable short of those will do it, no matter how tweaked or optimised.
“Delicacy” and “transparency” can’t usually be “added” - they have to be an innate part of the basics of the turntable’s character and gradually uncovered. A Rega P3 (to choose a poor example) is a great little deck if directness and tunefulness is your bag, but you can stick whatever arm, cart and footers on and under it but it’s never going to do “delicacy” or “transparency”. Perhaps your existing turntable’s deficiencies are simply more starkly rendered in your new room, and you’re aware of its limitations which is helping you better understand where you are relative to the sort of performance available from something like a Kuzma/Kronos.
I get that there are components which push the performance envelope for any given format, but there’s very rarely a cheaper, lesser-quality alternative that doesn’t come with some sort of serious compromise. If what you really value in vinyl replay is the Kuzma/Kronos sound, then personally I’d admit defeat with your current setup and go all-in for your turntable of choice. Digital can still be a wonderful treasure-trove of discovery, allowing you to find music you really love and (potentially) purchase on vinyl. From all reports I’m sure the SGM is everything everyone says it is, but there are possibly cheaper alternatives that will allow you to obtain the same functionality and a good percentage of its performance for less (which is not necessarily the case for vinyl). You’d then have a level of digital performance that ultimately falls short of SOTA status, but nevertheless provides enough enjoyment and discovery that’s more than made up for by the performance from your SOTA vinyl rig where there are no longer the sort of compromises you face with your current vinyl setup.
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For a few years I had an arm's race between vinyl and digital. Sometimes one would pull out ahead, then the other for some reason, but vinyl always won in the end.
My vinyl setup is designed for max performance with minimal fussing and tweaking. No blowers, actuators, suckers, pumps, linear trackers, magic levitators, charmed ufo metals, electrical planks with micro kickers etc. i.e. its all purely mechanical, which I think is do-able and preferable and allows maximal listening with no more than necessary tweaking.
Tape is best, but as stated, there are actually some hi end tapes that don't sound that great, just like there are some cd's that sound better than some vinyl records. For that matter, some cd's sound better than some high end tapes. I won't do tape, because I would wind up with a few demo tapes on the wall that I would never listen to, but might pull out for exhibition purposes only.
Digital has REALLY come a long way and sounds great now. I think my laughable digital setup ( Pioneer Elite DVD or $15 Samsung blu ray player with HDMI) played through the Yamaha CX A5000 home theater preamp sounds GREAT. I think fairly ordinary digital, even lowly CD, sounds a lot better now than even the highest end digital rigs from a few years ago. Listeners who have heard my podunk digital think it sounds really good, too, even in relation to the vinyl rig.
I wouldn't blame anybody for going "all digital" nowadays. However, nothing will save you from your audiophilia nervosa, and you can bash it on an endless array of digital tweaks as much as you can a vinyl rig. If I have the choice, I would rather expend whatever audiophilia nervosa energy I have on analog, because I still find it most rewarding.
My vinyl setup is designed for max performance with minimal fussing and tweaking. No blowers, actuators, suckers, pumps, linear trackers, magic levitators, charmed ufo metals, electrical planks with micro kickers etc. i.e. its all purely mechanical, which I think is do-able and preferable and allows maximal listening with no more than necessary tweaking.
Tape is best, but as stated, there are actually some hi end tapes that don't sound that great, just like there are some cd's that sound better than some vinyl records. For that matter, some cd's sound better than some high end tapes. I won't do tape, because I would wind up with a few demo tapes on the wall that I would never listen to, but might pull out for exhibition purposes only.
Digital has REALLY come a long way and sounds great now. I think my laughable digital setup ( Pioneer Elite DVD or $15 Samsung blu ray player with HDMI) played through the Yamaha CX A5000 home theater preamp sounds GREAT. I think fairly ordinary digital, even lowly CD, sounds a lot better now than even the highest end digital rigs from a few years ago. Listeners who have heard my podunk digital think it sounds really good, too, even in relation to the vinyl rig.
I wouldn't blame anybody for going "all digital" nowadays. However, nothing will save you from your audiophilia nervosa, and you can bash it on an endless array of digital tweaks as much as you can a vinyl rig. If I have the choice, I would rather expend whatever audiophilia nervosa energy I have on analog, because I still find it most rewarding.
I never thought digital could compete,but with noise reduction,digital in my system drops my jaw. It is the future....I would concentrate on your digital and improving your overall noise floor,everything will improve with it.
The Select DAC, but the second power supply, one for analogue, one for digital, made all the difference. I can now, for the first time, enjoy big classical orchestral music on digital without gnashing my teeth and rending my cloths.......
Hi Ron,
Those are great points. Personally, for me, a), b), and d) lesser issues. But c) is a big one for me, and e) a secondary but related concern.
As to c), I’ve mentioned before that much of the music I listen to is unlikely to find its way onto vinyl, is very, very unlikely to receive some sort of “audiophile” treatment at the hands of a master vinyl cutter, and will never, ever see the light of day as a third- or forth- generation 15ips master, let alone a second-generation one.
As to e), I listen to quite a bit of music that’s loosely grouped together under the banner of electronic minimalism/drone/microsound. Usually, the music is embedded in silence, and lies not too far above the noise-floor of the system. It’s really mostly suitable for headphone listening, so a vinyl release makes no sense. I also listen to a lot of drone that contains significant amounts of stereo sub-60Hz energy, often with serious amplitude below 30Hz. It makes it extremely difficult to cut in stereo, and generally needs serious compression and mono-ing below 60Hz to make it playable.
In both cases, digital is the only answer. For Spirit I think figuring out which of your a) through e) categories are significant enough to jump to the SGM and abandon plans for a better turntable. My feeling, for whatever it may be worth, is that he should take your advice and just get a whole new turntable, and enjoy what digital has to offer at a lower level of expenditure.
Hi spirit
If music is what you're after as would suggest your "nom-de-forum" then go digital. In the beginning there may be signs of withdrawal syndromes. In the end given the stellar level of digital playback (and it is constantly improving IME), you won't regret it.
I have for the past 8 years or so fully embraced digital. I am listening to more music than I ever had... Plus there is something called ROON which cost $500 for a lifetime subscription and another "thing" called Tidal which offers High SQ music (lossless no less ) for the modest monthly sum of $20 .. when the two are coupled you will find yourself listening to a lot more Music as opposed to doing the FOMO we audiophiles are so deep into..
Go digital, in my book it surpasses what analog has to offer ...
Flame suit on !!
If music is what you're after as would suggest your "nom-de-forum"
then go digital. In the beginning there may be signs of withdrawal syndromes. In the end given the stellar level of digital playback (and it is constantly improving IME), you won't regret it. I have for the past 8 years or so fully embraced digital. I am listening to more music than I ever had... Plus there is something called ROON which cost $500 for a lifetime subscription and another "thing" called Tidal which offers High SQ music (lossless no less
) for the modest monthly sum of $20 .. when the two are coupled you will find yourself listening to a lot more Music as opposed to doing the FOMO we audiophiles are so deep into..Go digital, in my book it surpasses what analog has to offer ...
Flame suit on !!
if Tidal goes belly up, I'm curious to what would happen to digital-philes. does anyone really want to return to burning CDs? ugh.
Hi spirit
If music is what you're after as would suggest your "nom-de-forum"
I have for the past 8 years or so fully embraced digital. I am listening to more music than I ever had... Plus there is something called ROON which cost $500 for a lifetime subscription and another "thing" called Tidal which offers High SQ music (lossless no less
Go digital, in my book it surpasses what analog has to offer ...
Flame suit on !!
Funny, for me it is the exact opposite and from what is see of my streaming friends it is I who listen to music and they are busy skipping tracks. I put on a record and listen to the whole side, then I get up, flip it over and listen to the entire other side. They jump around like scared jack rabbits.
My friends are on endless shuffle and miss the meaning in hearing a whole album (what a concept!), like "wish you were here" or Corea and Burton live in Zurich 1979 on ECM. I want to feel the concert, not jump from Crystal Silence to Have a cigar in one jump. There is no artistic connection IMO and that is what an album brings me.
More great responses guys, can I thank you all for refraining from the usual analog v digital mudslinging
Ked, I only mention the SGM so often because of what it does to converge digital twds analog, and it's advantage for user friendliness re computer audio dummies like me
I know you feel it doesn't do anything to get closer to the sound of analog, but I disagree a lot w you there, it's vanishingly low noise flr enables by far the greatest level of micro dynamics from digital I've ever experienced, and this factor alone jumps the divide to analog, and that's before we even talk HQP
It also happens to be the only high end streamer I've been exposed to over an extended period of time that in effect I've got to know
But, no, I'm not convincing myself that I have to buy it, at £17k to incl Dac8 that's the cost of a eg AMG Viella V12 tt plus arm, but even more importantly, the option of 2k-3k lps/CDs off EBay/secondhand record shops
Brad, I kinda agree w you re my tt/arm/cart
It has a very pertinent sound, and the designer deliberately eschewed digital speed control because every feedback loop system he tested introduced a kind of jitter which softened dynamics
He has had to settle on a high torque system where speed can drift over time, and the least compromise chosen was set and fine tune at intervals
The motor pod was also designed to drain vibrations away from the platter and hence stylus
Hence the tt has had a lot of emgineering thrown at it, and specific choices made
The air arm IMHO is a marvel of minimalist engineering genius, a truly fuss free low pressure system, truly an alternative to the brutally complex and finnickety alternatives like the Kuzma Airline
Where there are compromises is in the areas of tolerances and fit, a similar design w cash thrown at it by a Brinkmann or AMG would have more consistency and potential
The Straingauge may well be limited by it's electronics, all I know is it outperformed the Transfiguration Orpheus cart/Tom Evans Groove Plus SRX it replaced
I suspect this rig's tendency to favour dynamics and bass lines over transparency and delicacy may have been masked in my old room, and now revealed by my very neutral new space
I guess it's just a greater divergence from my cdp is more marked, esp w what I love about my Eera cdp only enhanced by the new room
Ked, I only mention the SGM so often because of what it does to converge digital twds analog, and it's advantage for user friendliness re computer audio dummies like me
I know you feel it doesn't do anything to get closer to the sound of analog, but I disagree a lot w you there, it's vanishingly low noise flr enables by far the greatest level of micro dynamics from digital I've ever experienced, and this factor alone jumps the divide to analog, and that's before we even talk HQP
It also happens to be the only high end streamer I've been exposed to over an extended period of time that in effect I've got to know
But, no, I'm not convincing myself that I have to buy it, at £17k to incl Dac8 that's the cost of a eg AMG Viella V12 tt plus arm, but even more importantly, the option of 2k-3k lps/CDs off EBay/secondhand record shops
Brad, I kinda agree w you re my tt/arm/cart
It has a very pertinent sound, and the designer deliberately eschewed digital speed control because every feedback loop system he tested introduced a kind of jitter which softened dynamics
He has had to settle on a high torque system where speed can drift over time, and the least compromise chosen was set and fine tune at intervals
The motor pod was also designed to drain vibrations away from the platter and hence stylus
Hence the tt has had a lot of emgineering thrown at it, and specific choices made
The air arm IMHO is a marvel of minimalist engineering genius, a truly fuss free low pressure system, truly an alternative to the brutally complex and finnickety alternatives like the Kuzma Airline
Where there are compromises is in the areas of tolerances and fit, a similar design w cash thrown at it by a Brinkmann or AMG would have more consistency and potential
The Straingauge may well be limited by it's electronics, all I know is it outperformed the Transfiguration Orpheus cart/Tom Evans Groove Plus SRX it replaced
I suspect this rig's tendency to favour dynamics and bass lines over transparency and delicacy may have been masked in my old room, and now revealed by my very neutral new space
I guess it's just a greater divergence from my cdp is more marked, esp w what I love about my Eera cdp only enhanced by the new room
If tidal goes belly up .. it will be a sad day for me..albeit I have a local library of around 5000 albums most of my listening these days is stuff I discovered on tidal .. Roon is a wonderful user interface and has changed my music horizons. both of these are small change compared to what they can do for you in a streaming type system
853, Frantz and Brad
I do love a lot of new music, eg Blue has introduced me to London Grammar via Tidal, which I likely would NEVER have discovered in the more conventional way
And it sure is fascinating to simply punch in an album mentioned in a review, and within seconds have it in top quality
Certainly Blue has done this dozens of times to astound me, and on these occasions I am fully sold on the sq of SGM/dsd512/HQP, and the concept of steaming
But, a lot of new music I love ISN'T on Tidal (underground prog and fusion), as well as a good proportion of older recording artists, so it's not a total solution for one's library
So, streaming is somewhat a mixed bag as a concept, and de facto I would never give up my lps to it
But the inherent sq via SGM I am truly convinced of
Happy to listen to complete albums all the way thru, whether on Lp or streamed
I realise this doesn't have to be an SGM or top tt/arm upgrade choice solely
I could stick as is, max my tt w active isoln, bespoke psu to my Straingauge, run streaming simply w an Oppo Sonica for $799, and spend the saved cash on 000's of used black and silver discs
Or a mid level solution of Auralic Aries and maybe Exogal Comet dac, and modest upgraded tt/arm and some cash on physical media
Re top tts, Im not hung up on tts I can't ever afford
I love the Kronos and GP Monaco 1.5, not much input on the AF
Happy to consider gear more in my sweet spot of <$20k, eg Amg Viella V12
No shortage of choices for analog
I do love a lot of new music, eg Blue has introduced me to London Grammar via Tidal, which I likely would NEVER have discovered in the more conventional way
And it sure is fascinating to simply punch in an album mentioned in a review, and within seconds have it in top quality
Certainly Blue has done this dozens of times to astound me, and on these occasions I am fully sold on the sq of SGM/dsd512/HQP, and the concept of steaming
But, a lot of new music I love ISN'T on Tidal (underground prog and fusion), as well as a good proportion of older recording artists, so it's not a total solution for one's library
So, streaming is somewhat a mixed bag as a concept, and de facto I would never give up my lps to it
But the inherent sq via SGM I am truly convinced of
Happy to listen to complete albums all the way thru, whether on Lp or streamed
I realise this doesn't have to be an SGM or top tt/arm upgrade choice solely
I could stick as is, max my tt w active isoln, bespoke psu to my Straingauge, run streaming simply w an Oppo Sonica for $799, and spend the saved cash on 000's of used black and silver discs
Or a mid level solution of Auralic Aries and maybe Exogal Comet dac, and modest upgraded tt/arm and some cash on physical media
Re top tts, Im not hung up on tts I can't ever afford
I love the Kronos and GP Monaco 1.5, not much input on the AF
Happy to consider gear more in my sweet spot of <$20k, eg Amg Viella V12
No shortage of choices for analog
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True speed stability allows the transparency and delicate sounds to come through true. Where your TT designers may have fallen down is in their conclusion about eschewing speed control. It can be done right BUT, it must use a superior motor, most, even today do not use the right kind of motor and the best I have heard use fairly high mass (but not very high mass platters...more like 4-10kg) platters, with more than a single level pll with FG etc.
Tell you what, go spend a bit over $1k and get a Kenwood KP-9010, a Pioneer PL-70 or 7L, or a Yamaha GT-2000 and see if it doesn't give you a lot of what you are missing.
I have owned and heard at length many much more expensive TTs than my Yamaha (with optional outboard PSU and vacuum platter) but it delivers better sound than all of them: precise without sterility, rock solid images, tone is spot on, soundstage etc. I don't use an expensive cart but I have a very nice phonostage from Silvaweld (now Allnic basically...same designer) that I likely won't ever sell.
That not likely to happen.(burning/purchasing/playing cd's) If Tidal goes belly up someone will step in to fill the void. I copied this from another site.
According to Music Business Worldwide, "Sony Music Entertainment generated 134.83bn Yen ($1.24bn) from streaming music in calendar 2016 – and 40.65bn Yen ($372m) in the three months to end of December alone. That means Sony’s recorded music division is now earning approximately $124m every month, $31m every week, $4m every day and $167,000 every hour from the likes of Spotify and Apple Music. This quarterly streaming haul of 40.65bn Yen was up 30.3% on the 31.2bn Yen ($286m) recorded in the same period of 2015." Of note is that physical music sales still reign as the highest earner for Sony Music Entertainment with CD and vinyl sales of 137.23bn Yen ($1.26bn), which just barely beats streaming revenue by 1.8%. Sony did note in their recent financial report that the strong United States Dollar currency combined with decreased physical media sales hindered further revenue growth
Someone, whether its Spotify, Amazon., Apple, or Google will tweak the streaming model 'till it's a money maker.
Brad, like all the vintage DDs from Japan, I've seen the GT2000 many times, but never looked further
This looks like another great design, but needing massive modding to plinth, replacing all the caps, impvd arm etc
Ie v much like the work needed to bring an SP10 or 301/401 up to modern standards
What have you done to yours?
This looks like another great design, but needing massive modding to plinth, replacing all the caps, impvd arm etc
Ie v much like the work needed to bring an SP10 or 301/401 up to modern standards
What have you done to yours?
I don't know what you are saying. I hear dozens of state-of-the-art analog at audio shows every year. I hear more of them that just about anyone here. It has anything but superior sonics. I hear so much distortion in it that it constantly pulls me away from the music. In that regard, loving analog means to become blind to its flaws. I am unable to do that.
Analog would be lucky to rise up to the fidelity of digital. Indeed the best analog comes kind of, sort of close to digital to me.
For every rule we have an exception - one the most transparent and delicate sounding turntables that I have owned - the famous Pink Triangle Anniversary - was an absolute disaster in terms of speed stability. But when paired with the Syrinx PU3 Ipsissima tonearm delicateness was unique. Unfortunately mistracking at the end of LP with this tomearm was severe with most LPs. BTW, the weak point of the PT was deep bass.
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