Should I stay, or should I go?

[spiritofmusic]

Amir and Bonzo, now control yrselves
Seriously, at least for this thread we need to move past the "analog is just so complete, digital can't compete" and "analog so distorted I can't listen to it, but ok at putting up with digital's failings" mottos
FWIW, i DO feel top digital is really competitive, but vastly more digital sounds poor than good
As a died in the wool vinylphile, that's where I am at present
And now I have heard digital which is IMHO truly stepping on analog's toes
Even though this is a thread about analog AND digital, it's not about analog VERSUS digital
If that makes any sense
I'm really trying to convey that the SGM in my repeated listening experience is the first digital that barges in on the party that is analog, but the best analog still sets the rules, the best digital passes many of these rules, but some rules only obeyed by the best analog, but only when the best analog has blood sweat and tears expended on it and not otherwise

 

[NorthStar]

Two choices:

 

[Al M.]

I never thought digital could compete,but with noise reduction,digital in my system drops my jaw. It is the future....I would concentrate on your digital and improving your overall noise floor,everything will improve with it.

Very true about noise reduction and digital. Not until I got external power supplies for my amps, which lowered the noise floor dramatically compared to the internal ones, did I have any clue what timbral resolution and ambience retrieval digital was capable of in my system. Additional reduction of acoustic noise by room treatment only enhanced the effect.

 

[RogerD]

Very true about noise reduction and digital. Not until I got external power supplies for my amps, which lowered the noise floor dramatically compared to the internal ones, did I have any clue what timbral resolution and ambience retrieval digital was capable of in my system. Additional reduction of acoustic noise by room treatment only enhanced the effect.

After concentrating on my mono blocks,I then moved to my sub related electronics. Truly amazing what it has done for midrange and higher,... clarity,saturation,and tonality,not to mention imaging and ambience. This is with both redbook and SACD,HDCD. and I don't think I have found the bottom yet.

 

[NorthStar]

if, right now, you can only go 'all-in' on one or the other, then I would choose digital.

chasing vinyl bliss can get crazy expensive, whereas digital is quite a bit more sane (with multiple ways to go that play to various tastes) and the delivery processes now are wonderful.

This makes good sense, and helps @ preserving sanity. ...I think. :b
And that's all she wrote.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi spirit

If music is what you're after as would suggest your "nom-de-forum" then go digital. In the beginning there may be signs of withdrawal syndromes. In the end given the stellar level of digital playback (and it is constantly improving IME), you won't regret it.

I have for the past 8 years or so fully embraced digital. I am listening to more music than I ever had... Plus there is something called ROON which cost $500 for a lifetime subscription and another "thing" called Tidal which offers High SQ music (lossless no less ) for the modest monthly sum of $20 .. when the two are coupled you will find yourself listening to a lot more Music as opposed to doing the FOMO we audiophiles are so deep into..

Go digital, in my book it surpasses what analog has to offer ...

Flame suit on !!

In your passion to "go digital", do you realize that Marc is already digital? He has an Eera Stanton CD player. This is not a digital vs analog question for a newbie. Are you saying that to listen to more Music as opposed to FOMO he needs to buy a 16k EUR SGM server (plus dac cost) ? And that music is not possible retaining analog and buying a 2k used server?

Maybe, for those advocating digital, what would your reply be if his question was "I want to start streaming. Should I then go for the max price server there is, and an expensive dac, after selling off my existing CD player and getting out of analog" - this is quite a different question from should I go digital or analog

 

[bonzo75]

Very true about noise reduction and digital. Not until I got external power supplies for my amps, which lowered the noise floor dramatically compared to the internal ones, did I have any clue what timbral resolution and ambience retrieval digital was capable of in my system. Additional reduction of acoustic noise by room treatment only enhanced the effect.

You will struggle to find a lower noise room than Mike's. Btw, I agree that reduction of acoustic noise by room treatment is a great plus, something that one won't get out of plugging in Entreq boxes alone.

 

[morricab]

More great responses guys, can I thank you all for refraining from the usual analog v digital mudslinging
Ked, I only mention the SGM so often because of what it does to converge digital twds analog, and it's advantage for user friendliness re computer audio dummies like me
I know you feel it doesn't do anything to get closer to the sound of analog, but I disagree a lot w you there, it's vanishingly low noise flr enables by far the greatest level of micro dynamics from digital I've ever experienced, and this factor alone jumps the divide to analog, and that's before we even talk HQP
It also happens to be the only high end streamer I've been exposed to over an extended period of time that in effect I've got to know
But, no, I'm not convincing myself that I have to buy it, at £17k to incl Dac8 that's the cost of a eg AMG Viella V12 tt plus arm, but even more importantly, the option of 2k-3k lps/CDs off EBay/secondhand record shops

Brad, I kinda agree w you re my tt/arm/cart
It has a very pertinent sound, and the designer deliberately eschewed digital speed control because every feedback loop system he tested introduced a kind of jitter which softened dynamics
He has had to settle on a high torque system where speed can drift over time, and the least compromise chosen was set and fine tune at intervals
The motor pod was also designed to drain vibrations away from the platter and hence stylus
Hence the tt has had a lot of emgineering thrown at it, and specific choices made
The air arm IMHO is a marvel of minimalist engineering genius, a truly fuss free low pressure system, truly an alternative to the brutally complex and finnickety alternatives like the Kuzma Airline
Where there are compromises is in the areas of tolerances and fit, a similar design w cash thrown at it by a Brinkmann or AMG would have more consistency and potential
The Straingauge may well be limited by it's electronics, all I know is it outperformed the Transfiguration Orpheus cart/Tom Evans Groove Plus SRX it replaced
I suspect this rig's tendency to favour dynamics and bass lines over transparency and delicacy may have been masked in my old room, and now revealed by my very neutral new space
I guess it's just a greater divergence from my cdp is more marked, esp w what I love about my Eera cdp only enhanced by the new room

Brad, like all the vintage DDs from Japan, I've seen the GT2000 many times, but never looked further
This looks like another great design, but needing massive modding to plinth, replacing all the caps, impvd arm etc
Ie v much like the work needed to bring an SP10 or 301/401 up to modern standards
What have you done to yours?

I have done nothing because it works perfectly. Why would I need to modify the Plinth? It is solid mdf and very dense. Maybe the power supply could be recapped but the voltage is stable and most importantly the speed is rock stable and dead accurate. Runs totally silent.

 

[morricab]

For every rule we have an exception - one the most transparent and delicate sounding turntables that I have owned - the famous Pink Triangle Anniversary - was an absolute disaster in terms of speed stability. But when paired with the Syrinx PU3 Ipsissima tonearm delicateness was unique. Unfortunately mistracking at the end of LP with this tomearm was severe with most LPs. BTW, the weak point of the PT was deep bass.

The Yamaha has no such weaknesses. Probably the PTs weaknesses are from suspension issues and speed stability issues that can affect bass power and dynamics.

A friend of mine has a PT Tarantella and it is a fun lively thing but has no serious deep resolution and lacks weight overall. It too has a simple DC motor without advanced control. My Gyrodec SE was similar it's main weakness.

 

[mullard88]

Is the Eera Stanton CD player a new model?

 

[bonzo75]

Is the Eera Stanton CD player a new model?

No an older French model, the one that Jack owns

 

[bonzo75]

I'm really trying to convey that the SGM in my repeated listening experience is the first digital that barges in on the party that is analog, but the best analog still sets the rules, the best digital passes many of these rules, but some rules only obeyed by the best analog, but only when the best analog has blood sweat and tears expended on it and not otherwise

No one's disagreeing with most of this except would like to know your experience in comparing SGM, Aurender W20, and the Beast? Or with Melco, N10?

I am not asking you if SGM was the best - just want to know your experience with these, how bad were these on the digital front that you found only one digital that makes it analog?

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's the Eera Tentation, one below the Autographe that has a dac out
JackD201 has both, indeed he directly helped me out on getting the Tentation, and on balance prefers my model
The Eera is well under the radar, and in both our opinions, the finest cdp ever made
IMHO it is a clear step up from the Emm, Reimyo, Linn cd12, Playback, Amr etc, that I auditioned over time
It remains my benchmark for digital, and my tt tbh in terms of neutrality, consistency and transparency
Ked, I've only directly compared the SGM/Dac8 v Auralic Aries/Audio Aero La Fontaine, and heard Aurender, Melco at shows, no experience of The Beast
Tbh, the SGM/Dac8 trounces the Aries/Audio Aero in every aspect, but most importantly in the hardest thing to get right for digital ie analog flow and micro dynamics
Never heard that from any of the other streamers, but I realise shows are no way to judge
Look, I don't want this thread to be me plugging the SGM, it just happens to be the component that has really set off these feelings if dichotomy in my mind

 

[bonzo75]

It's the Eera Tentation, one below the Autographe that has a dac out
JackD201 has both, indeed he directly helped me out on getting the Tentation, and on balance prefers my model
The Eera is well under the radar, and in both our opinions, the finest cdp ever made
IMHO it is a clear step up from the Emm, Reimyo, Linn cd12, Playback, Amr etc, that I auditioned over time
It remains my benchmark for digital, and my tt tbh in terms of neutrality, consistency and transparency
Ked, I've only directly compared the SGM/Dac8 v Auralic Aries/Audio Aero La Fontaine, and heard Aurender, Melco at shows, no experience of The Beast
Tbh, the SGM/Dac8 trounces the Aries/Audio Aero in every aspect, but most importantly in the hardest thing to get right for digital ie analog flow and micro dynamics
Never heard that from any of the other streamers, but I realise shows are no way to judge
Look, I don't want this thread to be me plugging the SGM, it just happens to be the component that has really set off these feelings if dichotomy in my mind

I think the above experiences do justify exiting analog (and CDs) with a 15k entry to the streaming world

 

[mullard88]

Eera Tentation. I have one too. Welcome to the club. There's a good chance you will not miss analogue.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mallard, the Tentation is the greatest secret in high end history
In a major marketing coup , Eera released a standalone cdp w no dac out in 2011 at the point where streaming became preeminent
Had it been released a decade earlier, I am convinced it would have been the 'go to' top end cdp for the guys on this forum only satisfied w the best
It's performance is ironically a reason why I'm a tad reluctant to embrace streaming, it is so textured, nuanced w real analog depth, that as a self declared computer audio dummy, I could happily continue to buy CDs until I pop my clogs

So, this decision on investing in top end streaming v a top end tt/arm upgrade that is highlighted in this thread, is actually much more wide ranging in effect
SGM or top tt
Top tt or cheaper all in one Oppo Sonica
Put most of the budget into lps and CDs and cheap Oppo Sonica to cover stuff not on disc, or find new music I wouldn't find otherwise

 

[morricab]

It's the Eera Tentation, one below the Autographe that has a dac out
JackD201 has both, indeed he directly helped me out on getting the Tentation, and on balance prefers my model
The Eera is well under the radar, and in both our opinions, the finest cdp ever made
IMHO it is a clear step up from the Emm, Reimyo, Linn cd12, Playback, Amr etc, that I auditioned over time
It remains my benchmark for digital, and my tt tbh in terms of neutrality, consistency and transparency
Ked, I've only directly compared the SGM/Dac8 v Auralic Aries/Audio Aero La Fontaine, and heard Aurender, Melco at shows, no experience of The Beast
Tbh, the SGM/Dac8 trounces the Aries/Audio Aero in every aspect, but most importantly in the hardest thing to get right for digital ie analog flow and micro dynamics
Never heard that from any of the other streamers, but I realise shows are no way to judge
Look, I don't want this thread to be me plugging the SGM, it just happens to be the component that has really set off these feelings if dichotomy in my mind

Had a look at your cd player...surpisingly sparse for a $12K product. Quite small PSU and simple, clean electronics board. None of this is indication of sound quality of course. I had heard good things about this French player but I am not such a fan of the way DS chips make their music. I had an Audio Aero that was almost tolerable but still "synthsized" sounding, IMO. Would be curious to hear what the EERA is doing differently.

 

[morricab]

Mallard, the Tentation is the greatest secret in high end history
In a major marketing coup , Eera released a standalone cdp w no dac out in 2011 at the point where streaming became preeminent
Had it been released a decade earlier, I am convinced it would have been the 'go to' top end cdp for the guys on this forum only satisfied w the best
It's performance is ironically a reason why I'm a tad reluctant to embrace streaming, it is so textured, nuanced w real analog depth, that as a self declared computer audio dummy, I could happily continue to buy CDs until I pop my clogs

So, this decision on investing in top end streaming v a top end tt/arm upgrade that is highlighted in this thread, is actually much more wide ranging in effect
SGM or top tt
Top tt or cheaper all in one Oppo Sonica
Put most of the budget into lps and CDs and cheap Oppo Sonica to cover stuff not on disc, or find new music I wouldn't find otherwise

Well, pack up your EERA and take it to Monaco and compare it to the SGM and whatever top DAC they want to demo it with and see how your player stacks up. I guess it is not a very heavy thing, right so you could even take it as a carryon on the airplane...properly boxed up of course... Or, if there is a dealer in England then get him to bring it over for a demo and decide once and for all if your EERA measures up or not to the best high res or if there is a lot more in that redbook than a lot of people think.

I will stick with Redbook for now because I have a DAC (Monarchy audio M24) that sounds great and has a quite analog like sound. It doesn't really touch my analog but it reminds me enough of it that I can thoroughly enjoy. Many much more expesnive digital systems I have heard (including DSD512) do not sound even close to as analog as this simple, redbook only, DAC. It is thoroughly old school tech (BB PCM63K 20bit chips, DF1704 8x oversampling filter, passive IV conversion, tube analog stage (no opamps or transistors at all) but it has balls and tone and image palpability. Soundstage is not as wide open as some (like the Audio Aero I had) but it goes deep and is well resolved. Maybe I will change someday...maybe not. I will probably improve my analog further.

 

[bonzo75]

Well, pack up your EERA and take it to Monaco and compare it to the SGM and whatever top DAC they want to demo it with and see how your player stacks up. I guess it is not a very heavy thing, right so you could even take it as a carryon on the airplane...properly boxed up of course... Or, if there is a dealer in England then get him to bring it over for a demo and decide once and for all if your EERA measures up or not to the best high res or if there is a lot more in that redbook than a lot of people think.

I will stick with Redbook for now because I have a DAC (Monarchy audio M24) that sounds great and has a quite analog like sound. It doesn't really touch my analog but it reminds me enough of it that I can thoroughly enjoy. Many much more expesnive digital systems I have heard (including DSD512) do not sound even close to as analog as this simple, redbook only, DAC. It is thoroughly old school tech (BB PCM63K 20bit chips, DF1704 8x oversampling filter, passive IV conversion, tube analog stage (no opamps or transistors at all) but it has balls and tone and image palpability. Soundstage is not as wide open as some (like the Audio Aero I had) but it goes deep and is well resolved. Maybe I will change someday...maybe not. I will probably improve my analog further.

He can do the compare in the UK. So let's assume the SGM + dac wins. So he should exit his Eera, but he should also exit analog? The question is not about the Eera

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, it's an amazing player
But that's me, I'm a fan
There is not much online re how it's made, so hard to judge
I do know they concentrate on really isolating the transport from external vibns via their GyroPoint mech, and have beefed up the output stage
This means they get as many of the 'bits' off the disc, and maximise the converted signal out to the preamp
Terrible explanation, just illustrative