The quesiton was to max out digital or analog. This might help him decide if his digital is close enough that he doesn't need to go there and then he can think about maybe going all out on the analog.
Should I stay, or should I go?
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
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The quesiton was to max out digital or analog. This might help him decide if his digital is close enough that he doesn't need to go there and then he can think about maybe going all out on the analog.
Ok, I just saw pictures of the insides and it has a quite small PSU and about 1/3rd is empty. Not a problem just curious.
It is quite possible the SGM will be better, and more importantly, have more functionality (to play tidal). That functionality is available at much lower cost, without having to sacrifice analog optimization
I had this DAC, which 6 moons praised (ok quite some time ago):
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audioaero/prima.html
It was essentially an Audio Aero Capitole 24/192 cd player without the transport. I had the SE version as well. The AA Capitole and later versions up to the La Source/La Fontaine were all praised for their very organic and musical natures. They all used the Anagram Technologies digital filters with Analog Devices DS chips and miniature tube output. I remember one year at Munich where quite a few rooms sounded pretty good and in each one the source was an AA La Source or La Fontaine...I made a mental note of this because they were the common element in most of those rooms that sounded good.
That said, I think my much cheaper Monarchy is better sounding...more realistic.
Marc, you should do a test with your TT to see if it is really speed stable. Take or obtain a record you have of solo piano where the pressing is well centered and listen to the long decays that occur periodically throughout the piece. If you have the same recording on digital even better then compare the stability of the tone of that decay to see if you hear any "warble" in tone with the TT. I have measured belt drive TTs with the Allnic Speednic while they are playing a record and you can see the slight warble in the strobe as it is playing, probably because of needle drag. The Speednic makes it very easy to see this. These were expensive BDs, not mid class ones, BTW. Also, nearly every belt drive TT was slightly off in absolute speed and we tuned them with the Speednic to get them at the right speed...probably they drifted off again later but at least we got it right for a while. I have done this with my Yamaha as well and it is perfectly locked on in speed and when playing a record there is not the slightest hint of a "warble" in the strobe. So clearly there is no "hunting" going on or variations due to drag or other frictive forces. Get a Speednic and try for yourself. Now, I haven't tried a Speednic on a cheap mass market DD and maybe one can see if it is over and under shooting, particularly when playing a record where there is resistance from needle drag...would be an interesting experiment.
I had friends over on Sunday and one of the guys said he had never heard piano decay sound so stable as he had heard at my place with analog. I listen to a lot of piano so that kind of stability is important.
I had friends over on Sunday and one of the guys said he had never heard piano decay sound so stable as he had heard at my place with analog. I listen to a lot of piano so that kind of stability is important.
Brad, take it from me my Eera is v special indeed
I believe Ked heard their Autographe at the Aries Cerat/Animas demo at Paris, and JackD rates our Tentation over it
It also remains Albert Von Schweikert's fave cdp
Re my tt, speed stability was one of the main driving forces that pushed me to buying it
I've kinda noticed speed variations in piano notes decay on my old Michell Orbe belt drive/Origin Live motor upgrade, and my prev Roksan Xerxes
There seems none of this w my Salvation
I'm coming to a bit of a conclusion as to my mixed feelings about analog v digital
After 15 months of not listening to my system daily, and hence no vinyl (as my system was packed away ahead of house move and audio room construction), my only regular access to music has been digital at Blue's, initially Auralic Aries/Audio Aero La Fontaine, and then in the last 6 months his SGM/Dac8, up to once a fortnight for a couple of hours at a time
And now I've returned to vinyl, I have a different baseline/set of parameters/expectation bias in place
And I'm convinced I'm hearing the noise of vinyl ie its inferior noise floor wrt digital
Whether it's stylus roar, or speed issues, platter roar, rumble, surface noise etc, I'm more aware of it, and poss it's limiting effect on transparency and micro dynamics, the two areas where SOTA digital streaming are particularly good atm, helped no end by SGM nr zero noise and HQP magic making
But, and it's a big but...even if the noise flr on vinyl is worse than digital, the "information flr" seems way better
Ie despite noise issues poss limiting my ultimate transparency and micro dynamics w my tt v digital, my lps still produce a tremendous amount of information seemingly not portrayed by digital
So comparing "Freedom Jazz Dance" on Miles Davis "Miles Smiles" Japanese vinyl v Eera cdp remastered cd box set v SGM/Dac8 Tidal to 512dsd/HQP, the digital wins out on seperation of instruments, and some additional depth and precision, the SGM more than the Eera, but my tt really fills the soundstage, more color and density to instruments, and seemingly more intent by the musicians, even though the density somewhat squashes the imaging
I actually really like both presentations, the vinyl I'll contend may be less accurate, but the digital less involving
Now, I'm convinced a better tt/arm would declutter my sound somewhat, but I also get what the top digital is going to clarify communication too
Day by day, w small adjustments, my analog is improving
But over a year with just top digital is readjusting my parameters, and I certainly will never declare analog simply better than digital anymore
Whether I'm closer to answering the q posed in the title of my thread?
Well, ...
I believe Ked heard their Autographe at the Aries Cerat/Animas demo at Paris, and JackD rates our Tentation over it
It also remains Albert Von Schweikert's fave cdp
Re my tt, speed stability was one of the main driving forces that pushed me to buying it
I've kinda noticed speed variations in piano notes decay on my old Michell Orbe belt drive/Origin Live motor upgrade, and my prev Roksan Xerxes
There seems none of this w my Salvation
I'm coming to a bit of a conclusion as to my mixed feelings about analog v digital
After 15 months of not listening to my system daily, and hence no vinyl (as my system was packed away ahead of house move and audio room construction), my only regular access to music has been digital at Blue's, initially Auralic Aries/Audio Aero La Fontaine, and then in the last 6 months his SGM/Dac8, up to once a fortnight for a couple of hours at a time
And now I've returned to vinyl, I have a different baseline/set of parameters/expectation bias in place
And I'm convinced I'm hearing the noise of vinyl ie its inferior noise floor wrt digital
Whether it's stylus roar, or speed issues, platter roar, rumble, surface noise etc, I'm more aware of it, and poss it's limiting effect on transparency and micro dynamics, the two areas where SOTA digital streaming are particularly good atm, helped no end by SGM nr zero noise and HQP magic making
But, and it's a big but...even if the noise flr on vinyl is worse than digital, the "information flr" seems way better
Ie despite noise issues poss limiting my ultimate transparency and micro dynamics w my tt v digital, my lps still produce a tremendous amount of information seemingly not portrayed by digital
So comparing "Freedom Jazz Dance" on Miles Davis "Miles Smiles" Japanese vinyl v Eera cdp remastered cd box set v SGM/Dac8 Tidal to 512dsd/HQP, the digital wins out on seperation of instruments, and some additional depth and precision, the SGM more than the Eera, but my tt really fills the soundstage, more color and density to instruments, and seemingly more intent by the musicians, even though the density somewhat squashes the imaging
I actually really like both presentations, the vinyl I'll contend may be less accurate, but the digital less involving
Now, I'm convinced a better tt/arm would declutter my sound somewhat, but I also get what the top digital is going to clarify communication too
Day by day, w small adjustments, my analog is improving
But over a year with just top digital is readjusting my parameters, and I certainly will never declare analog simply better than digital anymore
Whether I'm closer to answering the q posed in the title of my thread?
Well, ...
Hey Spirit,
The mind is an incredible thing to explore. Its breadth and depth unmeasurable, its limits unknowable. Those who make it their lives pursuit to understand make breakthrough after breakthrough only to realise that what they do know is dwarfed by what they don't. It's fascinating, beguiling and stimulating, and the journey of discovery a never-ending one.
But it's not the heart.
Best,
853guy
I agree - his mind is fascinating to explore, makes for excellent discussions on many threads
Ha.
Look. Let me just say this:
I'm aware there are many women in the world I've not slept with. Many, many of them are exceptionally talented, skilled, disciplined, conscientious, intelligent, emotionally sophisticated, culturally knowledgable, open-minded, social-refined and, yes, desirable.
But when I climb into bed with the mother of my children, all such pontification becomes irrelevant in the light of the fact that my heart lies with her.
853guy
That depends on when you decided to settle down. I was a serial dater till 40, and only then settled down - I am pursuing the same with hifi. Then you have been through a fair representation of all those things and decided on your mix.
Love that. No more need to be said really. To me that is the moment for the quest to be over and when gear simply becomes music and you are at peace.
This is what worries me about your TTs speed stability:
From the setup manual of the Salvation:
The system is finely balanced so any changes you make between records can affect speed. Make sure the motor pod remains the same distance from the platter & the lean angle has not altered. Also important is to make sure the lever for motor is always toward you & is set down gently so as not to lift the drive wheel away from the platter.
IMPORTANT: Engaging the motor requires the lever to be pushed all the way to the opposite side, then back again toward you so the cam settles gently against the base of the motor. Allow the lever to return under its own weight but guide it until it comes to rest. It is critical that the cam screw is just lightly resting on the motor plate & has not forced the motor way from contact with the platter as this will give inconsistent speed results. Setting down too rough may lift the motor contact off the traction belt even though the platter may still be spinning.
Once the system is run in & reaches operation temperature (approx 20 mins) the speed should have less than 0.3% drift assuming the room temperature remains constant & there is minimal variation in mains supply.
Note1: The 9kg platter has immense inertia & will take a few seconds to respond to the control knob. Only very slight tweaks are needed when adjusting speed & take care you do not over-compensate as it could take up to 30 secs for the platter to settle to new adjustment.
Note2: You will find speed drift may require frequent minor adjustments until the bearing, motor & electronics are burned in.
Typically, starting from cold the system will run slightly fast. As operating temperature is reached (approx 10 mins, less as runs in) it will slow. A suggested method of operation is to let the system warm up then set the speed. Play several records & fine tune until the speed remains constant.....then leave the control alone.
When you switch the system off, the motor does not need to be disengaged from the traction belt. The next time you start the system from cold, it will run fast. If you try to adjust the speed at this stage it will slow as the system warms, so best to let it run fast until it settles to the correct speed.
IMPORTANT
The whole system of speed control is finely tuned, & any variation in consistency may require adjustment, from VTF of the cartridge to the weight of record clamp used. Sophisticated motor speed control methods have been ditched in the case of Salvation as these all proved detrimental to the sound using this direct rim drive method. In practice, speed drift on Salvation is not an issue providing you are not varying the way you play your records from record to record or are a stickler for speed accuracy! Please consider this before ordering.
A stickler for speed accuracy??!! WHOA! What else is a TT supposed to do but spin the record at exactly 33.33 RPM...all the time? It changes based on its operating temperature, so one could assume that if your room temp is varying from summer to winter then the TT will run at slightly different speed in different seasons! Needle drag will also be an issue if VTF is important to the speed accuracy. A drift of 0.3% is not so small actually. If you contact the platter slightly more or less it also affects it. If I owned this TT I would have to have a Speednic to check it from day to day and it would probably drive me crazy by being unstable.
No, IMO, this is a precision machined TT with a very imprecise drive system. A cheap AC synchronous motor with a synthesized 50 or 60Hz would work far better...but it would be noisier and why they are often reserved for belt drives to isolate the noise from the platter. What are the rumble specs for this TT?
Spirit, I commend you for starting another thread bordering on the endless analog/digital discussion. My sentiments are similar to what is written above. I suspect something related to your move, or simply increased exposure to alternatives, has effected your opinion about the sound of your analog rig. I remember how extremely enthusiastic you were about it in these very pages, not long ago. If you are now aware of the shortcomings of your analog sound, I suspect it has more to do with the gear than with the medium. Given your history with analog and your existing LP collection, I would solicit Kedar's help and start to research top level analog alternatives and see how those compare to your new interest in digital. Your case is not as straight forward as that for someone deciding between analog and digital for the first time.
Having written that, I can not presume to know what is ultimately best for you. You must decide that for yourself. I do have one request though: If you do end up ditching analog for digital, could you please ship me your collection of LPs?
Since you address servers - I never listened to a server sounding as good as the Metronome Calypso or the Vivaldi transport spinning CDs. Many people openly share similar findings. BTW, I have no experience with the SGM.
On my Italian trip, the metronome server had lower noise floor and a bit more space than the metronome CD player (not the top CDP). I was indifferent but Gian's friend as well as the dealer preferred the server. We were told the difference would hold with the top CDP too. One guy here (custodian) prefers his W20 to the Scarletti into his vivaldi dac (not only for convenience but also for sound)
Detlof, you are a player at 80- play is the only peace
Ked, LOL, no, methinks the quest is done and peace is settling in.......or in other words, I'm just getting more deaf, or again in other words, the music lover in me has finally beaten the audiophile.
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