Shunyata Grounding System

[Puma Cat]

So...just some follow-up notes with two Altaira SGs in a segmented system, one segment dedicated to the "digital stack" and one segment dedicated to the Constellation Inspiration integrated amp, now that the gear has had time to "settle" and "bed-in" as we say in motor racing...

If I had to put a number on it, I'd estimate just adding a dedicated SG Altaira to the Constellation Inspiration integrated alone resulted in a 30-40% improvement in audio quality and the presentation overall, depending on the recording (er, um, actually mastering of said recording...). Which is really saying something, as the Constellation Inspiration was already fabulous-sounding.

Anyhoo, now that the gear has time to fully settle, and with the recent addition of the Shunyata Venom-X* clock cable to the AfterDark Master Clock, this system sounds....F**KING INCREDIBLE. I don't want to wax poetic here, but... good lord.

*— Side bar: folks should NOT disregard the new line of Venom-X cables from Shunyata, simply because of their affordable price point. This new line of cables from Shunyata is INSANE. I own a full loom of Alpha V2 ICs (which are really superb) and what am I lisening to? Venom-X on the Inspiration.

 

[7ryder]

So...just some follow-up notes with two Altaira SGs in a segmented system, one segment dedicated to the "digital stack" and one segment dedicated to the Constellation Inspiration integrated amp, now that the gear has had time to "settle" and "bed-in" as we say in motor racing...

If I had to put a number on it, I'd estimate just adding a dedicated SG Altaira to the Constellation Inspiration integrated alone resulted in a 30-40% improvement in audio quality and the presentation overall, depending on the recording (er, um, actually mastering of said recording...). Which is really saying something, as the Constellation Inspiration was already fabulous-sounding.

Anyhoo, now that the gear has time to fully settle, and with the recent addition of the Shunyata Venom-X* clock cable to the AfterDark Master Clock, this system sounds....F**KING INCREDIBLE. I don't want to wax poetic here, but... good lord.

*— Side bar: folks should NOT disregard the new line of Venom-X cables from Shunyata, simply because of their affordable price point. This new line of cables from Shunyata is INSANE. I own a full loom of Alpha V2 ICs (which are really superb) and what am I lisening to? Venom-X on the Inspiration.

Thanks for more impressions on the Altaira SGs. I know you aren't using the Altaira CG, but are you using the CGS connections on any Shunyata power conditioners in your system, besides the V16 in your server room?

 

[Puma Cat]

Thanks for more impressions on the Altaira SGs. I know you aren't using the Altaira CG, but are you using the CGS connections on any Shunyata power conditioners in your system, besides the V16 in your server room?

Sorry, if I wasn't clear. Before Altaira was avaiable, I was using the GP-NR binding posts on my Everest. So, I had the EtherREGEN, the DAC, and the control module of the preamp each going to a dedicated ground post on Everest, which made for a notable improvement. With the arrival of the Altairas, those components are connected to their respective Altairas, and the Altairas are connected with an Omega ground cable to the GP-NR ground terminals of Everest.

 

[TommyC]

If segregating analog from digital with 2 SG hubs, Shunyata suggests the DAC to be connected to the analog SG hub since the output is analog.

 

[Puma Cat]

Yeah, either will work. Try it both ways and see what you think. You can't do any harm by connecting either way. When I use the Constellation integrated, as it wants a dedicated Altaira, I connect my DAC to the same Altaira as the EtherREGEN. It works fine and sounds wonderful. This also might be because I connect to the RCA barrel of the S/PDIF digital input on the Lampi, and that part of the circuit would be in the "digital domain" of the DAC.

 

[stevebythebay]

Agree. It can get tricky with many a DAC which, like my dCS Vivaldi, has many inputs and outputs and many connection types options. Best to dig into the manual to find which ones fall into the analog vs. digital domain, and then match which connection you want to select for the SG you're using for digital use.

 

[stevebythebay]

One other thing that became obvious in my testing is that whenever a device, like the Uptone etherREGEN switch and Cybershaft clock, provides a dedicated ground post - it will be the optimum choice as against other alternatives for grounding the device. I went through this experiment on the clock, more by chance, and confirmed later after reading documentation from Cybershaft, which pointed to this feature underneath the unit, along with the necessary switching of the dedicated outputs.

 

[Kingrex]

Thanks for all the input Pum Cat. If I were to say a thread should go under a Dedicated Manufacturer Subforum, this would be one.

The idea of signal and chassis grounds opens such a can of worms. Every manufacturer has a different PS and Ground scheme (to some degree). How these interact with noise can vary. Knowing the brand of gear, performance level and product line all come into play.

In this hyper expensive audio world, a $3700 box is not crazy money. But the multiple levels of separation and selection lead on the think its more like 4 of these boxes are needed.
Digital x 2 and non digital x 2 or more. And another in the basement for the Data so maybe 5. Now we are at an $18k investment and no cables have been bought

Correct, you don't need 5. But, what equipment do you have and where is the best return for investment will vary with every system. Breaking all this down is a monumental task.

 

[Puma Cat]

Thanks for all the input Pum Cat. If I were to say a thread should go under a Dedicated Manufacturer Subforum, this would be one.

The idea of signal and chassis grounds opens such a can of worms. Every manufacturer has a different PS and Ground scheme (to some degree). How these interact with noise can vary. Knowing the brand of gear, performance level and product line all come into play.

In this hyper expensive audio world, a $3700 box is not crazy money. But the multiple levels of separation and selection lead on the think its more like 4 of these boxes are needed.
Digital x 2 and non digital x 2 or more. And another in the basement for the Data so maybe 5. Now we are at an $18k investment and no cables have been bought

Correct, you don't need 5. But, what equipment do you have and where is the best return for investment will vary with every system. Breaking all this down is a monumental task.

Respectfully, I don't think it's monumental, and in my experience, it's eminently "doable" in what I would classify as a 'practically significant' manner: 1 CG Altaira for a "core system", or if budget allows, 2 x SG Altairas: One for digital domain and one for the analog amplification gear. I think this'll get the majority of end-users the best return on investment for $6K. This is the set-up I'm running, and it provides significant improvements to the system for the investment. So, in my view, the ROI is excellent.

As for the data server, you can ground that to the GP-NR of a Shunyata power distributor or to a wall receptacle with their AC-wall receptacle grounding adapter, which cost like...65 bucks. Cheers.

 

[Kingrex]

Respectfully, I don't think it's monumental, and in my experience, it's eminently "doable" in what I would classify as a 'practically significant' manner: 1 CG Altaira for a "core system", or if budget allows, 2 x SG Altairas: One for digital domain and one for the analog amplification gear. I think this'll get the majority of end-users the best return on investment for $6K. This is the set-up I'm running, and it provides significant improvements to the system for the investment. So, in my view, the ROI is excellent.

As for the data server, you can ground that to the GP-NR of a Shunyata power distributor or to a wall receptacle with their AC-wall receptacle grounding adapter, which cost like...65 bucks. Cheers.

I know people who have odd noise issues such as radio stations coupling to equipment. If a device is suppose to shunt RF, I am hoping it can reduce or eliminate this coupled noise. But where did it couple and where do you add the ground device.

I am looking at a ground box as a way to fix issues. One phono preamp designer tells me the reason a competitors product is coupling to radio is a poor power supply. And its probably an issue with the way the equipment is internally grounded. So how am I or anyone else suppose to answer the question of where to apply a ground box per xyz phono preamp product line. As of now, the answer I see is purchase 2 devices and try them both. That doubles the cost for these people seeking a solution to a problem.

And maybe I am totally off base in thinking these devices can solve issues such as RF heard from a speaker. Maybe they are not designed to do that. I don't believe I have seen where anyone has said they might drain that type noise from a phono preamp. What if the noise is coming from the cartridge or the tone arm wire. Or a signal tube. Can a ground box help, or is the noise a part of the signal and once its in, its in.

If I am barking up the wrong tree I would love to know. I have always believed it is better to keep noise out in the first place than to try and remove it later. But there are cases where it gets in. And its a tough road when they have 2 phono pre. One they don't like much, but is dead quiet, and one they love that has a noise issue. Specifically radio. I don't view hum as something a ground box will fix.

Any Advice?

 

[Puma Cat]

I know people who have odd noise issues such as radio stations coupling to equipment. If a device is suppose to shunt RF, I am hoping it can reduce or eliminate this coupled noise. But where did it couple and where do you add the ground device.

I am looking at a ground box as a way to fix issues. One phono preamp designer tells me the reason a competitors product is coupling to radio is a poor power supply. And its probably an issue with the way the equipment is internally grounded. So how am I or anyone else suppose to answer the question of where to apply a ground box per xyz phono preamp product line. As of now, the answer I see is purchase 2 devices and try them both. That doubles the cost for these people seeking a solution to a problem.

And maybe I am totally off base in thinking these devices can solve issues such as RF heard from a speaker. Maybe they are not designed to do that. I don't believe I have seen where anyone has said they might drain that type noise from a phono preamp. What if the noise is coming from the cartridge or the tone arm wire. Or a signal tube. Can a ground box help, or is the noise a part of the signal and once its in, its in.

If I am barking up the wrong tree I would love to know. I have always believed it is better to keep noise out in the first place than to try and remove it later. But there are cases where it gets in. And its a tough road when they have 2 phono pre. One they don't like much, but is dead quiet, and one they love that has a noise issue. Specifically radio. I don't view hum as something a ground box will fix.

Any Advice?

My suggestion would be to work with a trained and certified dealer, and have them bring both types of hubs over for a test run/demo and make the determination empirically.

As for the phono stage, connect the phono stage's external ground terminal to a CG hub if there is only one hub in the system. If there are two (or more) hubs in a segmented system, connect from the phono stage's external ground terminal to the SG hub that grounds the analog amplification components (amp and preamp).

 

[Zeotrope]

I have the Everest conditioner.
Made my own signal grounding cables from some spare AntiCable solid core speaker wire and these RCA connectors available on Ebay.
All my components are now signal grounded to the Everest grounding.

Impedance is very important here. Depending on length, you will need 10 gauge cable, You should use at least 12g (from Richard @ Shunyata).

 

[Zeotrope]

After seeing this thread, and your post, I decided to make my own signal ground cable. I used some 16 gauge magnet wire I had around. Instead of making five separate wires, I combined them all into one. One spade on the Everest side, then I twisted it for about 4 feet. The last 3 ft is a single magnet wire to each negative pin on the rca/xlr connectors. This saved a lot of space on the ground post of the Everest, and is a little tidier.View attachment 90040View attachment 90041View attachment 90041

I think if it’s not shielded you’ve now created an antenna that can pickup more noise. Be careful with DIYing ground cables.

 

[Zeotrope]

In this document, they say you don't have to spend money on anything more than Venom or Delta for short runs, so you don't have to break the bank -

"For most systems requiring shorter lengths of cables, the Venom and Delta models are sufficient to demonstrate the ALTAIRA’s abilities. If there are longer length cables needed for connections between ALTAIRA hubs or between the ALTAIRA hub and the power distributor the Delta, Alpha, or Sigma models are recommended as budget allows. In summary, for shorter connections, the less expensive models will do the job, but for longer lengths the larger gauge models will deliver notable system improvements."

https://shunyata.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/ALTAIRA-Brochure.pdf

Good call out. Unfortunately, they don’t specify the length of “shorter”. Richard told me that the benefits will be noticeable among all cables, regardless of length. It’s part of the electrical circuit, so it follows that a better cable will sound better.

 

[Zeotrope]

Finally we ended up with 2 ALTAIRA Signal hubs with all analogue devices on one side, and the DAC joining the digital devices on the other hub.

Thanks for this. So in the final setup you had 0 Chassis hubs, and 2 Signal hubs daisy chained into an Everest?
From the Shunyata documents it seems like the Signal hub is only for digital components. Both units are the same, the Signal hub is just tuned to filter frequencies more commonly affected by digital components.

 

[Zeotrope]

Not quite right. If you are only going to use a single Altaira for an entire system (e.g., DAC and Integrated, or DAC, preamp, and amp), then get a (single) Chassis Hub.

OTOH, If you want to segment or segragate the digital gear separately from the "analog" amplification gear (e.g. the integrated amp), get two Signal hubs, one SG hub for the digital gear, and the other SG hub for the integrated amp. For optimal performance, It's not recommended to get one Signal hub and one Chassis hub for "segmented systems." You can do it safely, of course, and you will get a benefit, but not of the same qualities of improvement as if two Signal hubs were used for the segmented system.

None of the Shunyata documents show two Signal Hubs. They do in fact say that Signal hubs are tuned to reduce frequencies that affect digital components. So I don’t think using analog components on a Signal hub makes sense. They are the same unit - it’s just the frequencies they are designed to filter are different: Signal = Digital / Chassis = Analog or Digital.

Also, this has nothing to do with how the components are connected. I think some people are confused and think that if they use an RCA connector to the ground, they should use a Signal hub. That’s not correct. I agree that the naming is confusing.

Also, remember that if you do not have a dedicated ground post, you MUST check continuity with an ohm meter before connecting the ground cable to the chassis or to an input/output terminal (e.g., RCA). If you have a floating ground, i.e., no continuity then it is pointless to use this system. And you can damage your components. So don’t just buy an RCA (or another terminal) and connect it to your component if you don’t have a dedicated ground post. You must do the continuity test first, as explained in the Altaira Roadmap.

 

[stevebythebay]

None of the Shunyata documents show two Signal Hubs. They do in fact say that Signal hubs are tuned to reduce frequencies that affect digital components. So I don’t think using analog components on a Signal hub makes sense. They are the same unit - it’s just the frequencies they are designed to filter are different: Signal = Digital / Chassis = Analog or Digital.

Also, this has nothing to do with how the components are connected. I think some people are confused and think that if they use an RCA connector to the ground, they should use a Signal hub. That’s not correct. I agree that the naming is confusing.

Also, remember that if you do not have a dedicated ground post, you MUST check continuity with an ohm meter before connecting the ground cable to the chassis or to an input/output terminal (e.g., RCA). If you have a floating ground, i.e., no continuity then it is pointless to use this system. And you can damage your components. So don’t just buy an RCA (or another terminal) and connect it to your component if you don’t have a dedicated ground post. You must do the continuity test first, as explained in the Altaira Roadmap.

Reading this document clarifies, though It does not visually “show” their recommendations:

ALTAIRA Noise Reduction Grounding Hubs - Shunyata Research

An ALTAIRA ground-plane noise reduction system strips away multiple layers of noise, unlocking obscured subtle details and dynamics. The sheer degree of improvement in resolution in both audio and video performance must be experienced first-hand to be fully appreciated.

shunyata.com

Two Unique ALTAIRA Hubs​

​

“There are two ALTAIRA models available. Both have six terminals, each with their own dedicated zones of isolation. The ALTAIRA Chassis Hub is ideal for simple systems that have fewer than six components. The filters at each zone of isolation are tuned to the frequencies most commonly found riding the chassis-grounds of components.

For more complex systems, the ALTAIRA Signal Hub may be used to segregate and isolate certain types of components. For instance, separating the digital components from the analog components will provide a higher levels of performance. Filters are tuned to reduce frequencies that most commonly ride the signal ground of components.”

Also, see https://shunyata.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/ALTAIRA-Hub-Selection-Guide.pdf Specifically, “4. Segmented Grounding Systems.“

The Concepts Guide is probably the best introduction: https://shunyata.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/ALTAIRA-Grounding-Concepts-Guide.pdf

I see no reasons that would prevent the use, for instance, in connecting a Chassis Ground Hub for analog devices as first in line from say a Denali or Everest ground post, and then daisy chaining a Signal Ground Hub for digital devices. Just not explicitly described. I believe extensive testing has found that when segmenting between analog and digital devices, the optimal solution is the use of 2 or more Signal Ground Hubs.

But, and this is a big BUT, it’s a dealers responsibility, once trained and certified to sell the Altaira, and it’s associated cables, etc. to work with the customer and their system to “fit” the Altaira(s) and wiring that delivers the result that works, without adversely affecting or doing nothing for their system. This is an iterative process, involving quite a bit of empirical testing as well as listening.

As I’ve personally found out having spent hours on this - No pain…no gain.

 

[TommyC]

Thanks for this. So in the final setup you had 0 Chassis hubs, and 2 Signal hubs daisy chained into an Everest?
From the Shunyata documents it seems like the Signal hub is only for digital components. Both units are the same, the Signal hub is just tuned to filter frequencies more commonly affected by digital components.

I was a little bit confused regarding separating analog from digital so I emailed Shunyata. I was told for best performance, use 2 Signal Hubs to separate analog from digital. Additionally, Shuntaya groups DACs as analog since the output is analog. This is from Shunyata customer service.

 

[Zeotrope]

It’s definitely confusing. This document is quite clear though, note Step 4 especially:

https://shunyata.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/ALTAIRA-Hub-Selection-Guide.pdf

Bottom line: if you use only one Hub, get the Chassis hub.
More than 1 hub:
- Digital components - Signal hub
- Analog components - Chassis or Signal hub

What confuses me is that they say the Signal is optimized for digital components. So then why use it for analog as well?

 

[kennyb123]

Bottom line: if you use only one Hub, get the Chassis hub.
More than 1 hub:
- Digital components - Signal hub
- Analog components - Chassis or Signal hub

My system has 2 analog components (amp, DAC) and 3 digital (server, switch, clock). I have to admit that I wish they had come out with a signal hub that is a single box but split internally into two independent zones. That would allow segregation for smaller systems without having the expense of two separate boxes.