Shunyata Grounding System

[stevebythebay]

Steve does that mean the dCS DAC and Upsampler DO work/benefit?
I don’t have a dCS myself, but at the demo of my dealer we used a Rossini Streamer/DAC and it seemed to benefit quite a bit. Although we didn’t test it separate from the Tube integrated, which we both connected to the CG at once. But connecting the Rossini DAC to a separate SG gave more ease and refined to the presentation.
Maybe Shunyata wants to keep a list (at least internally) of components that are quite common like the dCS, MSBs, Lampizators as well as the Common amp manufacturers so that they can give a basic indication where grounding probably works best and also where to best connect it to.

Personally, I‘m really looking forward to try it at home. The benefit I would greet the most would be reducing unwanted (digital) artifacts that irritate our ears and keep us from relaxing more into the music. The other audiophile categories like more decay or airy soundstage are of course very pleasant positive „side effects“.

The thing to keep in mind is that the integrated amp is considered an analog device while the Rossini is a digital one according to Shunyata. So, it’s not surprising that using an SG for the Rossini helped things on both counts.

I know from speaking with representatives of Shunyata that they have been working closely with both early testers and dealers to identify all components and their behavior with respect to the Altaira CG and SG as well as alternative cabling options/lengths. And this can be complicated. Some hardware designs are unconventional, or as in my case with the Spectral, quite deliberately designed to already manage grounding and noise issues and are negatively impacted when attempting to use ”outside assistance“.

I certainly hope your Shunyata dealer is soon trained/certified to sell/install Altaira for you via the Shunyata-supplied demo kit. It can take quite some time and effort to fully analyze a system, based on its size and complexity.

One thing that has already been brought up and needs to be “put to bed” is whether or not the use of a CG, with a later installation of a separate daisy-chained SG, is acceptable and possibly a better solution when segmenting, or not, down the road.

Methinks there is potentially more testing to come...

 

[Puma Cat]

Mike / Puma,
<snip> Also the positives by the Altaria is something that can‘t be achieved by e.g. getting a better amp, pre or DAC. As Mike put it: Any system north of 20-30k could benefit quite substantially from adding one.

Yes, this is a very accurate observation. In my experience, I'd actually go down on the specification of a source component or pre rather than not have Altaira(s) in the system. They're that foundational. Just as excellent power distribution is.

 

[Puma Cat]

No, this is not true. Grant was consulted for my setup and he agreed that ONE SG hub is perfectly fine - in fact it’s recommended. Not sure why there is so much confusion!
It’s simply determined by what you want to connect to the Hub:
Digital Sources = Signal Hub.
Analog Sources = Chassis Hub.
Digital or Analog to one Hub = Chassis Hub

I have two SGs ordered. Will connect one DG to one Denali. Would have just ordered one SG but I can’t physically connect all components to one.

This is an accurate statement. I would agree that starting with one SG hub is perfectly fine. And then as funds allow, and you want to create a segmented system later, where for example, you want to connect, say, segment the digital front end from the analog amplification components, you can do that. That's close to what I have in place: one SG hub for the digital "front end" and one dedicated to the Constellation Integrated amp amplification component.

 

[Puma Cat]

By the way, as I’ve found with almost everything I change in my system, the Altaira and cabling benefits from a number of days in use - and do not move the components around or you’ll disturb system performance. Settling in is a fact of life for audio systems.

Yep, it sure is....

 

[FarnsworthAudio]

This is a great interview from Suncoast Audio interviewing Caelin Gabriel regarding the Altaira Grounding System.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...anyone have a link to the "database" doc Caelin said they had for the various components? I did not find it on the website or YouTube channel. Is it public-facing? Thanks.

 

[7ryder]

...anyone have a link to the "database" doc Caelin said they had for the various components? I did not find it on the website or YouTube channel. Is it public-facing? Thanks.

I can't find it either.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...in my case, I have two bridged Luxman m900s and a c900 pre. Luxman isolates chassis grounds, so the external ground posts are "signal" not chassis grounds. In the docs I read, I thought I read Shunyata stated to *not* ground such components. The video seems to suggest a signal set-up and a chassis box for other components might be appropriate. And then, where to ground when using a TT7 power supply? Gets complicated.

 

[stevebythebay]

...in my case, I have two bridged Luxman m900s and a c900 pre. Luxman isolates chassis grounds, so the external ground posts are "signal" not chassis grounds. In the docs I read, I thought I read Shunyata stated to *not* ground such components. The video seems to suggest a signal set-up and a chassis box for other components might be appropriate. And then, where to ground when using a TT7 power supply? Gets complicated.

Absolutely why a trained Shunyata dealer is key to helping you figure out what to test (via multimeter), and try out to validate what will work in your system. And it is definitely a multi-hour project.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...no dealer around here. Fortunately, I have and know how to use a multimeter. Their test matrix is in the Altaira doc...I was just hoping they had a db of components, which makes it a bit easier to develop a strategy based on known characteristics. Probably a conversation with Shunyata rather than a dealer, as I already know the Luxman should not be chassis ground, and external ground post is signal.

Thanks anyway. Cheers...

 

[Puma Cat]

...in my case, I have two bridged Luxman m900s and a c900 pre. Luxman isolates chassis grounds, so the external ground posts are "signal" not chassis grounds. In the docs I read, I thought I read Shunyata stated to *not* ground such components. The video seems to suggest a signal set-up and a chassis box for other components might be appropriate. And then, where to ground when using a TT7 power supply? Gets complicated.

Your situation may (emphasis on the word "may" here) be similar to connecting an Altaira to Constellation gear. By this I mean, that if you connect an ohm meter to the ground pin of a Constellation component's IEC power cord receptacle and to one of the chassis fasteners, you do not get a "zero impedance" (0 ohms reading) shown by the ohm meter. This is because of how Constellation does their proprietary grounding scheme. In the case of Constellation gear, you connect the appropriate CGCs to an unused input or output (e.g., an XLR or RCA), to a Signal Ground hub. Luxman and some of the other really high-end mfrs. e.g. CH Precision, Audionet, etc. may require similar approaches. For these applications, as Steve has said, it's critical, both for safety reasons and performance reasons, to work with your trained and certified Altaira dealer. And, if in the case of the component, if it's a dual-mono design, as Constellation is, you need to connect a Shunyata ground cable to an unused connection for each channel (i.e., two CGC cables). In my case, I"m connecting four ground cables: an RCA CGC for an unused L/R RCA interface and two XLRs, for an unused pair of L/R XLR interfaces (an interface could be either an input or an output).

 

[PYP]

This is a great interview from Suncoast Audio interviewing Caelin Gabriel regarding the Altaira Grounding System.

Great video. Thanks for posting. Answered all of my questions for now. Caelin Gabriel's scientific and pragmatic approach is very appealing, and having a Denali at home has sold me on his technology. The improvements are not small and since he says the same about the Altaira that solidifies my interest.

I like that they have demo units because even if your equipment is appropriate for this kind of grounding, your own ears are the real test. The database is an excellent idea and I also will look out for audiophiles using the Altaira with Mola Mola and Grimm equipment (none has chassis grounding lugs). If at least some folks experience a benefit, I'll get a demo unit to try. For my simple setup, one CG Altaira is the way to go.

 

[CKKeung]

 

[MusicFellow]

Puma / Mike,

quick question: Are the grounding cables directional? I want to avoid ordering the „wrong“ termination, e.g. start with spade / end with banana (vs the other way round). Alternatively, just ordering the same end (if feasible) avoids this potential „problem“.
Have any of you found, if spades or bananas are preferred sonically or if (hopefully) there is no difference?

Cheers!

 

[Puma Cat]

Puma / Mike,

quick question: Are the grounding cables directional? I want to avoid ordering the „wrong“ termination, e.g. start with spade / end with banana (vs the other way round). Alternatively, just ordering the same end (if feasible) avoids this potential „problem“.
Have any of you found, if spades or bananas are preferred sonically or if (hopefully) there is no difference?

Cheers!

No, the grounding cables are not directional. My personal preference, if you only need to connect one cable per Altaira terminal, is to use a banana at that end. That way the cable makes a straight "run" in to the back of the Altaira ground posts. There is virtually no sonic difference between using a banana or spade termination. Also, the terminations are using Shunyata's STIS Gen 3 system, so if you order one or the other connector, and determine you need the other type, you can just order that STIS connector. You don't have to buy a new cable. Personally, with the STIS Gen 3 system and the ground cable tails, I really like how Shunyata has designed the system so you don't have buy an entire other cable if your set-up, application, or components change.

 

[BobK]

This is a great interview from Suncoast Audio interviewing Caelin Gabriel regarding the Altaira Grounding System.

I could not agree more...awesome video, Mike!

 

[dbeau]

No, the grounding cables are not directional. My personal preference, if you only need to connect one cable per Altaira terminal, is to use a banana at that end. That way the cable makes a straight "run" in to the back of the Altaira ground posts. There is virtually no sonic difference between using a banana or spade termination. Also, the terminations are using Shunyata's STIS Gen 3 system, so if you order one or the other connector, and determine you need the other type, you can just order that STIS connector. You don't have to buy a new cable. Personally, with the STIS Gen 3 system and the ground cable tails, I really like how Shunyata has designed the system so you don't have buy an entire other cable if your set-up, application, or components change.

IF i read the website correctly, the cables appear reasonable in cost but the "tails" are $250" each which moves the total cost relatively higher.

 

[Puma Cat]

IF i read the website correctly, the cables appear reasonable in cost but the "tails" are $250" each which moves the total cost relatively higher.

That's not completely accurate. It depends on the application. You may not need to order a cable with a "tail', at all. For what might be classified as a "standard" application, e.g. connecting from a chassis ground terminal on a component to an Altaira, you only need to order base cables with, for example, an STIS spade at one end (for example, connecting to the ground terminal of an EtherREGEN) and an STIS banana for connecting to an Altaira hub. Other examples would be connecting to the screw-type ground terminals of Auralic or Lumin streamers, etc (once again, thank you, Auralic and Lumin for having these ground terminals). For these applications, a tail is not required, you just need a "base cable". Similarly, you can order a base cable with bananas on both ends, e.g. when connecting to the ground terminal of say, a phono stage or preamp, etc, that generally use a standard "3-way binding post" (e.g. my EAR 324 phono stage or the First Sound preamps, etc.) chassis ground terminals.

The tails generally (note the use of "generally"; this is not a "hard and fast" rule) come into play for making specific application-dependent types of connections, e.g. connecting to an RJ45 port of an Ethernet switch, an unused USB port (e.g. a "service port") on a DAC or streamer, an unused BNC port, or making XLR male or female connections, etc.

The tails are available in two different specifications: VTX and VTX-Ag. The MSRP for the VTX tails are $250 and the VTX $300. One of the nice things about having a "base cable" and "tail" system design is that if you want to upgrade the base cable or the tail at some point in time, you don't have to purchase the entire cable/tail assembly again. You could upgrade the base cable and use the tails you have, or upgrade the tail and use the same base cable. The other advantage is that if your termination needs change, e.g. you need a different termination for a new or different component, you don't have have to buy an entire new cable agiain, you only need to buy one tail for the new component/application.

 

[dandylinpsst]

...in my case, I have two bridged Luxman m900s and a c900 pre. Luxman isolates chassis grounds, so the external ground posts are "signal" not chassis grounds. In the docs I read, I thought I read Shunyata stated to *not* ground such components. The video seems to suggest a signal set-up and a chassis box for other components might be appropriate. And then, where to ground when using a TT7 power supply? Gets complicated.

Japanese brand gears generally have the chassis and the power ground terminal connected together. Esoteric is same. Luxman should be the same.
You can try opening the C900 cover and check if the external ground posts directly locked to the chassis.

But pay special attention to how two bridged Luxman m900s going to be grounded is another topic.
It is best to ask the Luxman how to deal with it more safely.

 

[stevebythebay]

An update on my adventures with Altaira: after reaching out to Grant regarding the somewhat perplexing result of using Altaira with my dCS Vivaldi Clock and BNC connectors, he suggested that using one of the black rear screws, rather than the recessed ones, might provide a solution to testing chassis grounding. He'd not yet obtained the smaller spade for doing so on his own clock. However, I had a few deployed for my etherREGEN and Cybershaft so began testing one on a borrowed cable yesterday. Voila! The problem I'd noted previously disappeared and the resulting drop in overall system noise and other positive effects emerged.

According to Grant, these specific chassis connections provide a stronger continuity than the BNCs. And it seems to be the case that in general chassis ground, where viable, is a better means of obtaining the best result. I gather that signal ground connections do not provide as direct a path in getting to the component's ground. So, in the absence of using multiple cables for each component, which might be most effective, and, in my case, using a single CG for all my digital devices, using a chassis ground is best.

Next up: to see if using the same approach with my APEX DAC and Upsampler will suggest these benefits in a similar way.