Silver cable break in

[Geoffkait]

It’s the same argument for CDs as it is for cables regarding magnetizing them. There appear to be no magnetizable materials in either one. See question above, “what’s getting magnetized?” by @Holmz

 

[Geoffkait]

I suppose one would see bit errors then, with CDs?

And CDs used to hold data, would need magnets in their readers to prevent data corruption?

I am not even sure how, or if, a magnet would affect a static charge.

1. I never looked for bit errors, I assume they are there.

2. The *moving magnets* produce an electric field. The electric field neutralizes the electric static charge on the CD. The charge on the CD is produced by the friction of air molecules rubbing against the plastic layer of the CD. After a couple of plays it’s prudent to “demag” the CD again. The static charge is very persistent and will remain on the CD for a long time. Time to intervene.

 

[Holmz]

1. I never looked for bit errors, I assume they are there.

If ^that^ was the case, then it would result in corruption of data on CDs and make things like excel spreadsheets in error… which we have never heard of…

2. The *moving magnets* produce an electric field.

It would induce a current flow in a wire, but there is no conductor.
There is no way for extra electrons to be deposited nor for extra electrons to be removed, as they would need to be created or destroyed… and magnetic fields do not create matter.

The electric field neutralizes the electric static charge on the CD. The charge on the CD is produced by the friction of air molecules rubbing against the plastic layer of the CD. After a couple of plays it’s prudent to “demag” the CD again. The static charge is very persistent and will remain on the CD for a long time. Time to intervene.

At least I agree that a CD could become charged.

 

[Geoffkait]

If ^that^ was the case, then it would result in corruption of data on CDs and make things like excel spreadsheets in error… which we have never heard of…

There is a big between corruption of data on the CD and producing errors when the data is read by the laser. People often assume Reed Solomon and the laser servo feedback system correct all errors. Lots of things have the potential to produce errors in music CDs - vibration (internal and external), scattered laser light inside the transport compartment, fluttering and wobbling of the disc whilst playing, to name a few.

 

[Holmz]

There is a big between corruption of data on the CD and producing errors when the data is read by the laser. People often assume Reed Solomon and the laser servo feedback system correct all errors. Lots of things have the potential to produce errors in music CDs - vibration (internal and external), scattered laser light inside the transport compartment, fluttering and wobbling of the disc whilst playing, to name a few.

What kind of errors do the wobbling and fluttering produce?
And how does the vibration manifests as data errors?

 

[Amir]

I am not sure but it seems the errors are not the main reason for degraded sound of transports. most transports read data (zero ones) correctly but the output digital signal quality is different.
- SPDIF is a weak link between transport DAC
- ground loops between transport and dac
- noise level in circuits or the power supply of transport
- vibration effects on transport output signal

I think great digital designers should explain why transports are not equal.

 

[Holmz]

I am not sure but it seems the errors are not the main reason for degraded sound of transports. most transports read data (zero ones) correctly but the output digital signal quality is different.
- SPDIF is a weak link between transport DAC
- ground loops between transport and dac
- noise level in circuits or the power supply of transport
- vibration effects on transport output signal

I think great digital designers should explain why transports are not equal.

Yep - I concur with ^all that^…. If there is some buffering of the output, then the bits can put pushed out with a few cycles of delay to ensure that they are clocked out with a uniform spacing.

But ^all that^ has no thinking to do with the charge on the CDs.
And I may have to start at the beginning to figure out how the charge on CDs relates to break in of silver cables.
(Seemed like a left hand turn to end up in Albuquerque <— said Bugs.).

 

[Geoffkait]

What kind of errors do the wobbling and fluttering produce?
And how does the vibration manifests as data errors?

The CD is a marvel of science but it’s not perfect. The primary issues arise IMHO during the laser reading of the physical pits and lands etched on the metal layer. This laser reading is actually an analog process. The nanoscale laser is striking the spinning disc. The data spiral is also nanoscale. So, depending on whether the laser beam strikes a “pit“or a “land“ the laser beam is either reflected back directly to the photodetector or canceled by wave interference in the pits. it’s a series of reflections/non-reflections. Also, there are only about 12 or so discrete, variable-length sequences of 1s and 0s that are allowable by the REDBOOK spec. The ONs and OFFs, so to speak, of the laser reading process are converted to sequences of 1s and 0s downstream.

Because the CD is often out-of-round and because the CD is not perfectly level while spinning at high speed, the CD can and does wobble and flutter during play, causing the otherwise clever laser servo feedbck systen to go into “overdrive,” constantly attempting to get the laser beam back on track. Obvious low frequency seismic type vibration coming up from the floor would exacerbate this problem. Vibration can affect other things in the playback system, too. Also the disc itself is subject to vibration and can be stiffened and stabilized to improve the situation, I.e., sound.

The laser beam scatters light as it strikes the edges of the pits and lands. That reflected light can and does get into the photodetector since there is nowhere fro the scattered light to go except fill up the CD transport compartment. If scattered light that’s a high fraction of the real reflected signal gets into the photodetector it will be detected as real signal, the photodetector is not that smart, it cannot distinguish between real signal and scattered light signal.

If you could look inside the CD transport while the CD is playing what you’d see is a red glow which is the scattered light, at least the visible red portion. But most of the scattered light is invisible near infrared, since the CD laser nominal wavelength is 780 nm, well into the near infrared. The laser is not monochromatic, so a fraction of its spectrum is below 700 nm, where visible red ends and near infrared begins.

The upshot of this is that the damage done to the sound occurs mostly in the laser reading stage, as for what happens downstream, garbage in, garbage out.

This is not to say other problems elsewhere in the system can and do contribute to a degradation of the sound.

 

[Geoffkait]

I am not sure but it seems the errors are not the main reason for degraded sound of transports. most transports read data (zero ones) correctly but the output digital signal quality is different.
- SPDIF is a weak link between transport DAC
- ground loops between transport and dac
- noise level in circuits or the power supply of transport
- vibration effects on transport output signal

I think great digital designers should explain why transports are not equal.

I prefer not to broach the physics of how CD demagnetizers work, but my recent 2 months‘ and continuing experimentations with these devices including the Walker Audio Talisman, and my own designed from scratch degausser prove to me they work when used correctly - when Lloyd Walker’s instructions are followed to the letter - spinning the on a fingertip of one hand whilst holding the demag over it for 3 complete revolutions. Repeat for the other side.

Lloyd’s opinion was that a demagnetizer does both degauss and de-stat the CD, I tend to agree, but find it easier to buy into the DESTAT as the primary method of operation, static electric charge just makes more sense than magnetic fields on a CD. At one point in time circa late 90s, Lloyd asked me to design an isolation system for his $100,000 turntable, but that didn’t happen til it was too late.

 

[Adelmor]

When the day dawns that we can explain exactly, at an atomic level how an electric current propagates through a cable, then we may be able to explain how run in works. In the meantime, all we have is subjective ‘expert ears’ and speculation (unproven hypotheses). In the past 4 years I have run-in a large number of power supply upgrades that involved Mundorf Silver/Gold cabling and gradually I observed the exact same pattern each time, which fit with the above descriptions. It also took up to 500 hours to achieve the level of perfection I was expecting

Some would call it expectation bias or ‘user conditioning’ but that infers a conscious component to the process. That would not explain that during the running in process I would often catch myself using my iPad to surf internet items while music was playing, whereas the fully run-in system was overwhelmingly involving and generated such intense emotions that stray thoughts were simply obliterated. That’s an entirely subconscious reaction.

Also, let me ask you. Can you explain, again at the atomic quantum level what happens when a cable is degaused or what cryogenic cooling does, because they both make changes to the atomic or crystal structure. In the case of cryogenic treatment one can actually see the changes to crystal boundaries Under a high power election microscope.

Our level of knowledge of how cables affect the resulting sound quality is still pretty much at the ‘unconscious ignorance’ stage…..we don’t know what we don’t know. All denial of the subjective observations of change achieves is to ensure we remain at that level. The problem isn‘t that the changes don’t happen. The problem is that our knowledge is insufficient to explain why.

I agree that there is a dilemma of 14 day trials vs. 500 hour break-in, but that doesn‘t mean that the break-in doesn’t exist or take 500 hours. It just means that either demos need to be done with pre-run-in components, or that potential customers take an initial listen and decide if the changes heard in the initial period warrant purchase. This has been my approach. Over the years Ive learned that if a component sounds really good and brings specific improvements at the onset, it will eventually sound even better, but will sound considerably worse during burn in, On the other hand, if I don‘t like what the component does after say 5 days, then burn in won’t suddenly transform it. There has to be initial benefits before everything goes to hell for a few weeks until the final transformation happens.

Hi,

I also have used as interconnects RCA Mundorf SILVER /GOLD cable of 2 type. One with PTFE insulation and one without any insulation but inserted inside a larger tube of PTFE. The impression was that the cable with PTFE insulation was faster to be burned in with music.
They were used to connect Pre Phono to Amp.

Rgds
Adelmo

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hi,

I also have used as interconnects RCA Mundorf SILVER /GOLD cable of 2 type. One with PTFE insulation and one without any insulation but inserted inside a larger tube of PTFE. The impression was that the cable with PTFE insulation was faster to be burned in with music.
They were used to connect Pre Phono to Amp.

Rgds
Adelmo

White and yellow color or later zero type?
Sorry zendo not zero

 

[Adelmor]

White and yellow color or later zero type?
Sorry zendo not zero

Hi,

I did not use the white and yellow type that are also twisted, I used the one with white insulation and sold as single wire and the one without and insulation, just wire. The wire diameter was 0.5mm and the length 70 Cm. As for RCA connectors I used Klei connector single contact point.
I have to say that my system is not a good system as many are here in this forum, but that was my experience.

Rgds
Adelmo

 

[Geoffkait]

OK, let’s get back to cable break in, here’s how Nordost explains it,

FAQ'S | Break In

Nordost, manufacturer of high technology cables including speaker / video cables and analog and digital interconnects. Brand names include the Supreme Reference Odin, Reference Valhalla and Tyr and others including Norse, Flatline and Sort Systems

www.nordost.com

 

[DasguteOhr]

All fine, the later zendo wire have 0.2 mm diameter it sounds a bit smoother, more air needs break in150 hours i think like the caps from mundorf my opion

 

[Holmz]

All fine, the later zendo wire have 0.2 mm diameter it sounds a bit smoother, more air needs break in150 hours i think like the caps from mundorf my opionView attachment 125440

^This^ is great - we are back onto silver from silver coloured CDs.

What is the insulator made of in ^those^ cables?
Is there more of a correlation to burn in with teflon or PTFE or vinyl, than with cotton or silk?

 

[Holmz]

I prefer not to broach the physics of how CD demagnetizers work, …

^that^ seems wise.

 

[Geoffkait]

I think great digital designers should explain why transports are not equal.

Here are some perfectly valid reasons transports are not equal, it should be pointed out the laser reading process is analog, the photodetector records sequences of reflected signals and no reflections/no signal, which are converted to one’s and zeros downstream.

- The CD tray vibrates too much.
- Some transport mechanisms are noisier than others.
- The CD tray is not the correct color. It should be cyan (blue green). At least the red portion of the laser would be absorbed.
- The transport is not properly isolated mechanically from very low frequency vibration Circa 0 - 10 Hz. The tiny spring system that supports the laser assembly (part of laser servo feedback system) is very *sensitive* to seismic type vibration,
- All rooms behave (sound) differently.
- All systems sound different, I.e., different amps, different speakers, different digital cable, interconnects, etc.
- The CD is not level while spinning. Tip: the level of the spinning CD is often not the same level as the top of the transport, for those who attempt to get the CD level.
- Some transport manufacturers, e.g., Meitner EMM Labs cryo their transports as part of process.
- DSD capability.

 

[Geoffkait]

^that^ seems wise.

Especially here, right? Wink, wink

How do you spell quantum magnetism?

Please scroll down to Introduction, page 7 paragraph 1 for brief overview how magnetism works, do not go past p 7 if equations.give you the willies.

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jmjk/keeling/teaching/magnetism-notes.pdf

 

[Holmz]

Especially here, right? Wink, wink

How do you spell quantum magnetism?

Please scroll down to Introduction, page 7 paragraph 1 for brief overview how magnetism works, do not go past p 7 if equations.give you the willies.

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jmjk/keeling/teaching/magnetism-notes.pdf

But… what is ^the point^?

Most people do not concern themselves with electron states and spin as much as political and news spin.

Are you suggesting that cables have some alignment of their spin in the metal?or in the dielectric?
And then that they should be aligned with a strong magnetic field? Or that they should be randomised?

or are we talking about CDs still, and the plastic base layer?

 

[Geoffkait]

I’m sure you probably have more questions. I’ll try to help you out.

History​

What is today known as the Bohr–Van Leeuwen theorem was discovered by Niels Bohr in 1911 in his doctoral dissertation[3] and was later rediscovered by Hendrika Johanna van Leeuwen in her doctoral thesis in 1919.[4] In 1932, J. H. Van Vleck formalized and expanded upon Bohr's initial theorem in a book he wrote on electric and magnetic susceptibilities.[5]

The significance of this discovery is that classical physics does not allow for such things as paramagnetism, diamagnetism and ferromagnetism and thus quantum physics are needed to explain the magnetic events.[6] This result, "perhaps the most deflationary publication of all time,"[7] may have contributed to Bohr's development of a quasi-classical theory of the hydrogen atom in 1913.