Single Driver Thoughts?

Cellcbern

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Single driver speakers can deliver something special at lower volumes by avoiding a crossover or with a limited xover implementations. However, crossover, speaker and cabinet design has come along a long way especially with computers and high - tech manufacturing and new materials making deleterious effects from xovers significantly less than years past. That, coupled with the limitation of trying to deliver ~9 octaves from 1 driver makes single drivers not a viable choice IMO especially in moderate to larger rooms.
Augmented (by low and high frequency drivers) wide band designs offer the best of both worlds. My custom Bache Audio speakers for example have a wideband driver covering 500hz to 10,000hz, an Eton woofer covering frequencies below 500 hz, and the rare Japanese Fostex FT96-EX-2 covering frequencies above 10khz. With no crossover in the midrange you get all of what single wide band driver designs provide plus extension at the frequency extremes.
 

L3RD

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Single driver speakers can deliver something special at lower volumes by avoiding a crossover or with a limited xover implementations. However, crossover, speaker and cabinet design has come along a long way especially with computers and high - tech manufacturing and new materials making deleterious effects from xovers significantly less than years past. That, coupled with the limitation of trying to deliver ~9 octaves from 1 driver makes single drivers not a viable choice IMO especially in moderate to larger rooms.
Don't watch the GR Research's video on speakers, he destroys them. Crossovers are still a mess on a lot of speakers. Even if the design is good the parts are frequently mediocre at best. There are good speakers out there, but there are surprisingly many bad ones from all quarters, big names and small. Single driver or tens of drivers, everything is a compromise.
 

L3RD

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A friend of mine has some Lii Audio Origin S-10 single driver speakers and he used to own Cube Audio Nenuphars.
Those are no more perfect than any speakers, but their strong suit is that they are stupid good for the money! My Audio Nirvana AN15 Alinco drivers are better, but they are no longer available from Audio Nirvana and the Lii Audio drivers are better than his ferrite 15" drivers regardless of how much he protests that they are better than the Alinco drivers he discontinued. I am seriously considering buying Spatial Audio 3M or 5X speakers. I am currently running the Alincos open baffle, not sure if I prefer that or boxes as I wasn't listening much before or after removing them from their boxes. They have to be too near the wall to really get the open baffle advantage if you want any base...
 

sbo6

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Don't watch the GR Research's video on speakers, he destroys them. Crossovers are still a mess on a lot of speakers. Even if the design is good the parts are frequently mediocre at best. There are good speakers out there, but there are surprisingly many bad ones from all quarters, big names and small. Single driver or tens of drivers, everything is a compromise.
I've seen a few of Danny's videos and I even had him "upgrade" my last pair of speakers' crossovers. I found it never truly sounded quite right with the new crossover and better parts, and I went above and beyond his kit having him install the best poly caps and bypass caps he had. While it had a bit more detail and the bass was tighter since the xover point was ~200Hz versus ~390Hz for the woofers, the driver to driver synergy was just not right versus the stock xover. So I say don't believe everything you read - or watch.
 

L3RD

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I've seen a few of Danny's videos and I even had him "upgrade" my last pair of speakers' crossovers. I found it never truly sounded quite right with the new crossover and better parts, and I went above and beyond his kit having him install the best poly caps and bypass caps he had. While it had a bit more detail and the bass was tighter since the xover point was ~200Hz versus ~390Hz for the woofers, the driver to driver synergy was just not right versus the stock xover. So I say don't believe everything you read - or watch.
The problem is that aural memory sucks, which is why we often have to back and fourth multiple times to figure out all the issues. I don't know if you are correct, or if it was already having issues, but they were sufficiently pronounced to mask it. I used to do modifications to electronics. Better parts in a bad circuit unmasks circuit issues. The same is true of speakers. Obviously I don't know exactly why you noted it afterwards, but if I had to guess, crsppy caps, coils and resistors were no longer hiding the issue. I found 3 caps in series on a tweeter once. I bypassed them and the tweeter sounded like dung. I tossed in a Hiquphon and it sounded much better,though there was a dip due to the range of the Twitter, but I just wanted to know if it was the circuit or the tweeter that sounded so bad. It would have been nice to have had his software. Anyway, I used to know 2 crossover geniuses, but we have drifted apart. Regardless, high dollar speakers doesn't guarantee good parts. One other point, Sonicraft, his favorite caps pretty much suck IMO. Myflex is a far better sounding capacitor as is the ODAM line.
 

Atmasphere

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Well, you're not wrong, but the question is, does it matter? If you listen to computer generated music, it probably will. Violins can get above 15KHz, perhaps on occasion to 18KHz. So, if it cannot get there without excessive drop off, it matters assuming that you can hear frequencies that high. My hearing is tested annually, but I am not sure that the test goes that high, so I don't know for a fact that I am capable of hearing that range. I certainly can here violins, but beyond that I'm not sure. Add to that that at least older Vandersteens sound like my Hiquphon tweeters in my 2 smaller speakers with blankets over the tweeters and I wonder if everyone wants to hear those frequencies. Music is quite subjective and personal. I used to use Acoustats which tilted up a dB or so in the highest frequencies. There are no perfect drivers that I am aware of. So, for some, it may be an issue, but very little music lives above 15KHz anyway. YMMV
The tweeters in my system are on a 6dB slope and roll in about 10KHz so they have significant output below that. Its easy to hear the reduction in 'air' if they are shut off. The midrange horn in my setup is field coil powered, has a 3" beryllium diaphragm with a Kapton surround, and IIRC the first breakup is at 35KHz. They are quite smooth and detailed at the same time.
 

L3RD

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The tweeters in my system are on a 6dB slope and roll in about 10KHz so they have significant output below that. Its easy to hear the reduction in 'air' if they are shut off. The midrange horn in my setup is field coil powered, has a 3" beryllium diaphragm with a Kapton surround, and IIRC the first breakup is at 35KHz. They are quite smooth and detailed at the same time.
From here, , they sound nice. I have a slew of speakers, my youngest just got my B&W 801Ms with replaced or bypassed caps, I don't recall whether they had any cheap sandcast resistors, but they would have also been replaced. I think that the inductors were fine. It didn't completely lose the unique B&W sound as I didn't replace the electrolytic capacitors, I just bypassed them. I greatly improved transparency though, and it did tamp down some of the sound induced by the well chosen, yet still imperfect electrolytic capacitors. I still have Thiel 7's, and KEF 104 reference speakers, Ellis Audio 1801s, and a pair of speakers Jim Holtz and Jim Saulk designed, but I listen to the AN15 Alincos.
 
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Republicoftexas69

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The problem is that aural memory sucks, which is why we often have to back and fourth multiple times to figure out all the issues. I don't know if you are correct, or if it was already having issues, but they were sufficiently pronounced to mask it. I used to do modifications to electronics. Better parts in a bad circuit unmasks circuit issues. The same is true of speakers. Obviously I don't know exactly why you noted it afterwards, but if I had to guess, crsppy caps, coils and resistors were no longer hiding the issue. I found 3 caps in series on a tweeter once. I bypassed them and the tweeter sounded like dung. I tossed in a Hiquphon and it sounded much better,though there was a dip due to the range of the Twitter, but I just wanted to know if it was the circuit or the tweeter that sounded so bad. It would have been nice to have had his software. Anyway, I used to know 2 crossover geniuses, but we have drifted apart. Regardless, high dollar speakers doesn't guarantee good parts. One other point, Sonicraft, his favorite caps pretty much suck IMO. Myflex is a far better sounding capacitor as is the ODAM line.
All 3 types of memory suck for me....what are talking about.
 
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L3RD

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All 3 types of memory suck for me....what are talking about.
The point is, that you can flatten an output, but if the original crossover was masking issues, a "better" crossover will expose them. He was between a rock and a hard place. Surrender and ship it back as it was after waste time etc, or fix it and see if you liked the increased detail in the reproduction more than you disliked the drivers inherent issues. Sometimes you roll the dice. I would have made you make the call, but I did mods at cost to learn what gear I liked, I wasn't using mods to feed a family. He did square away the crossover, but he couldn't fix driver mismatches. At least that's what it sounds like happened, but opinions are just that.
 

Atmasphere

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From here, , they sound nice. I have a slew of speakers, my youngest just got my B&W 801Ms with replaced or bypassed caps, I don't recall whether they had any cheap sandcast resistors, but they would have also been replaced. I think that the inductors were fine. It didn't completely lose the unique B&W sound as I didn't replace the electrolytic capacitors, I just bypassed them. I greatly improved transparency though, and it did tamp down some of the sound induced by the well chosen, yet still imperfect electrolytic capacitors. I still have Thiel 7's, and KEF 104 reference speakers, Ellis Audio 1801s, and a pair of speakers Jim Holtz and Jim Saulk designed, but I listen to the AN15 Alincos.
Electrolytics rarely get treated right IMO!

Electrolytics will pass audio if biased by a DC voltage. Non-polar caps will introduce distortion because one of the two caps in the device (they are simply two caps in series wired back to back) is always reverse biased. The solution is really simple- instead of a non-polar cap you put two caps in series in the same way to reach the same value. You then use a power supply of some sort (possibly some 9V batteries in series) to bias the caps with the right polarity and provide a return path for the bias current (which is quite minimal so batteries will last a long time). As long as the bias voltage is about 20% or so above the highest AC signal to be passed, the caps will do the job without distortion.

Electrolytics have been used as cathode bypass caps in tube amps for decades. In this application they are passing an audio signal but the cap is biased with a voltage such that it does not distort. Obviously it works!
 
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L3RD

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Electrolytics rarely get treated right IMO!

Electrolytics will pass audio if biased by a DC voltage. Non-polar caps will introduce distortion because one of the two caps in the device (they are simply two caps in series wired back to back) is always reverse biased. The solution is really simple- instead of a non-polar cap you put two caps in series in the same way to reach the same value. You then use a power supply of some sort (possibly some 9V batteries in series) to bias the caps with the right polarity and provide a return path for the bias current (which is quite minimal so batteries will last a long time). As long as the bias voltage is about 20% or so above the highest AC signal to be passed, the caps will do the job without distortion.

Electrolytics have been used as cathode bypass caps in tube amps for decades. In this application they are passing an audio signal but the cap is biased with a voltage such that it does not distort. Obviously it works!
I am pretty sure that the Quad ELS57s, and Jim Strickland had all my panels properly biased, but Acoustats had a lot more than 9VDC on them. High voltage, nearly no current, very stiff until the AC signal is introduced. I never really dug into the Quads, their low listening levels just didn’t work for me. They were sold off pretty quickly even though I did love their sound, the lack of bass and high output just killed the deal.
 

AMR / iFi audio

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I am pretty sure that the Quad ELS57s, and Jim Strickland had all my panels properly biased, but Acoustats had a lot more than 9VDC on them. High voltage, nearly no current, very stiff until the AC signal is introduced. I never really dug into the Quads, their low listening levels just didn’t work for me. They were sold off pretty quickly even though I did love their sound, the lack of bass and high output just killed the deal.
I've had a very similar experience with Quads. Not suitable for my main music taste. But for a second system...
Cap biasing was also used by JBL as far as I can remember. They used something quite crazy, like 72V DC.
 
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L3RD

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I've had a very similar experience with Quads. Not suitable for my main music taste. But for a second system...
Cap biasing was also used by JBL as far as I can remember. They used something quite crazy, like 72V DC.
I don't recall exactly but I think Strickland used 3KV in his Acoustats. AFAIK they were the only estate that would no arc, I was told that, but I don't know why. I never tried to figure it out. I was told that Rockford bought out Hafler's electronics, but the Chinese ended up with the Acoustat name and technology, though by then I imagine that if there had been any patents that they would have been long expired. I don't know if Strickland's Trans Nova technology was still protected, but of course the name Trans Nova is still protected.
 

DaveC

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Also looking at Omega any of you heard them??

Yeah, IMO save your money and buy Omega, they are excellent and you'll have to spend BIG-$ on something like AER that really aren't worth the money outside of using them in a horn and with a woofer and crossovers, and then it's no longer a single driver.

I'd get the 8" driver if you like something fast and modern, almost electrostat-like... or the 6" Alnico if you want like Jazz, vocals, etc and would rather have something a bit warmer but still very quick and resolving.
 

DaveC

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Single driver guys are more married to the theory rather than what they hear.

I agree but here's the deal... most multi-way speakers used to SUCK. Not that long ago, maybe 15 years or so, YG sucked, Wilson sucked, most multi-way speakers had horrible issues and sounded like crap in a vast majority of systems. You could go to the 1st 5 years of RMAF and find one or two speakers that seemed like they might have potential, and a vast majority of them had no potential, it was actually shocking how bad some systems used to be. These days I'd take a basic ELAC speaker over a vast majority of expensive big brand multi way speakers of 15-20 years ago. It's hard to really wrap your head around how bad high end audio used to be, with rare exceptions.

Now, it's much better and a majority of multi-way speakers have at least competent designs. the entire basis for owning a single driver is a lot less true than it used to be. Now, I think single drivers can be excellent at a limited range of music and SPLs, and the greatest reason to own one is to spend a lot less money, pair them with a simple but good SET amp, and still be able to hear EXCELLENT vocals, strings, etc. But they will still suck for complicated or loud music. I just can't imagine spending big-$ on Vox, AER, Feastrex, etc. and being happy with the result vs other alternatives these days. A customer of mine recently went from Lamhorns w/BD3s to Verity Sarastro IIS and is extremely happy with them across the board, and especially with classical.

I started out with single drivers and building my own SET amps, it was a great experience but I really hesitate to recommend single drivers given the choices available on the market right now.
 

Atmasphere

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I am pretty sure that the Quad ELS57s, and Jim Strickland had all my panels properly biased, but Acoustats had a lot more than 9VDC on them. High voltage, nearly no current, very stiff until the AC signal is introduced. I never really dug into the Quads, their low listening levels just didn’t work for me. They were sold off pretty quickly even though I did love their sound, the lack of bass and high output just killed the deal.
Part of the reason Quads didn't make bass is like most ESLs they have an impedance peak in the bass. If you have an amp that can make power into that impedance they can play bass quite well.
 

L3RD

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Hey guys, I am sorry, I have been responding to posts not addressed to me, I have been busy lately and wasn't paying sufficient attention. I was wondering what all the posts I was getting emailed about were coming from. Newbe mistake, I am sorry to have insinuated myself into the conversations of others so clumsily!
 

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Part of the reason Quads didn't make bass is like most ESLs they have an impedance peak in the bass. If you have an amp that can make power into that impedance they can play bass quite well.
An impedance peak means it requires lots of voltage to drive. So tubes should do pretty well in this regard. Or some very powerful solid-state amp. What kind of amp are you recommending?
 

Atmasphere

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An impedance peak means it requires lots of voltage to drive. So tubes should do pretty well in this regard. Or some very powerful solid-state amp. What kind of amp are you recommending?
Quads are unlike box speakers in that their impedance curve isn't based on a driver in a box with its attendant resonance. So to make sound pressure at bass frequencies where the impedance is high it needs power similar to what it does at other frequencies where the impedance is lower. IOW its not 'voltage driven'. An amplifier that can make power into a higher impedance is helpful; IOW one with more of a constant power characteristic rather than a constant voltage characteristic. Generally this is a tube amp with no feedback or an amplifier that has some voltage feedback and some current feedback at the same time. Back in the 1950s such amps were a little more common, having a 'Damping' control which was simply a control that allowed variable current vs voltage feedback.

ESLs in general have an impedance curve to varies by about 9:1 or 10:1 from bass to highs. An amplifier that has a constant voltage characteristic might be too bright on such a speaker since it doubles power as impedance is halved (or is halving power as impedance is doubled, which is the case if the amplifier is vacuum tube with sufficient feedback to act as a voltage source). Martin Logan tries to get around this problem by making the 20KHz impedance so low that most amps won't be able to double power while also allowing the speaker cable to have some effect as well (0.5Ohms is common with them), since they want to tap the solid state market which is considerably larger than the tube market.
 

AMR / iFi audio

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Quads are unlike box speakers in that their impedance curve isn't based on a driver in a box with its attendant resonance. So to make sound pressure at bass frequencies where the impedance is high it needs power similar to what it does at other frequencies where the impedance is lower. IOW its not 'voltage driven'. An amplifier that can make power into a higher impedance is helpful; IOW one with more of a constant power characteristic rather than a constant voltage characteristic. Generally this is a tube amp with no feedback or an amplifier that has some voltage feedback and some current feedback at the same time. Back in the 1950s such amps were a little more common, having a 'Damping' control which was simply a control that allowed variable current vs voltage feedback.

ESLs in general have an impedance curve to varies by about 9:1 or 10:1 from bass to highs. An amplifier that has a constant voltage characteristic might be too bright on such a speaker since it doubles power as impedance is halved (or is halving power as impedance is doubled, which is the case if the amplifier is vacuum tube with sufficient feedback to act as a voltage source). Martin Logan tries to get around this problem by making the 20KHz impedance so low that most amps won't be able to double power while also allowing the speaker cable to have some effect as well (0.5Ohms is common with them), since they want to tap the solid state market which is considerably larger than the tube market.
Do you know any models of such amplifiers, that will work well with Quads? Any tube amp without feedback?
 

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