Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

Here is a great image of the new TechDAS V. Note the different SME arms mounted. Perhaps the comparison will be made after all, Ack.

 

Every manufacturer that makes his own arm for his table will say theirs is the best. He is not the only one. MadFloyd you need to do this with your KronosView attachment 43105

Wow! Where did those armboards come from? Envious!

 

Well, to go off topic a little, but related to Dave advising Tang to switch his Cessaro subs off.

Have dialled in my analog to a level well in advance of anything I've had before (now scouring local record shops for classical Lps en masse).
But my cdp sound has been elusive in comparison.

My Stacore from under the cdp gone (to under the tt), and final upgrade on power cords to Zu subs.

So upon reading Tang's benefits in dropping out his subs, I thought I'd dial my subs to be as minimal as possible in augmenting the full range drivers.

I've gone from my London room setting of 50Hz, 5/10 level, 180° abs phase, to 35Hz, 2.5/10, 0°.

And despite a little mental readjustment, I'm totally sold on this new setting.

Air and dimensionality are up, bass bloat down, bass articulation and attack up.

Even w my ear right up against the sub, there is only minimal output.

Despite the 3012R not being on my radar, this thread has really been relevant to me hearing about Dave's thoughts on Tang's subs.

 

Congratulations to Tang for being able to set-up his 3012R competently on his first try! I don’t know how he did that.

Dear Ron,

When you have someone standing next to you with a whip telling you every step, you will eventually get it done. It took more than one hour. David exgerated it to make me appear a little smarter . The tune by ear part was the time consuming part. It sounds easy because everyone here seems to already have golden ears. But actually there is a few tricks he taught where to listen to and what we try to get the sound closest to that point. When I didn’t understand the sound he aimed at I just asked. We kept playing two songs over and over. Each cart has different characters but still you can use that target points to tune the cart to. He will teach you how to do that. But before tuning he would hear your system first whether it would allow to get to those points and he might ask you to do something with your system. The set up of tt was so simple. The Thai team did all that by ourself. But the arm/cart set up was what he flew all the way to each me for.

Kindest regards,
Tang

 

Here is a great image of the new TechDAS V. Note the different SME arms mounted. Perhaps the comparison will be made after all, Ack.

Good! And nice picture, though that arm on the lower left doesn't exactly look like the 3012R we have seen herein. I still find it hard to believe that any wiring from the 80s and 90s - name brand or not - is sophisticated enough to compete with today's arms'.

 

Good! And nice picture, though that arm on the lower left doesn't exactly look like the 3012R we have seen herein. I still find it hard to believe that any wiring from the 80s and 90s - name brand or not - is sophisticated enough to compete with today's arms'.

These arms actually look like the 9" versions, the 9" V, and 3009, though I can't tell which series or mk. I don't know if there was a 3009R.

 

Good! And nice picture, though that arm on the lower left doesn't exactly look like the 3012R we have seen herein. I still find it hard to believe that any wiring from the 80s and 90s - name brand or not - is sophisticated enough to compete with today's arms'.

Not always the case- ARC amps honestly sucked for several decades until recently. Many people think early JRDG and Krell amps sound much better than their successors. The CJ ACT preamp was kind of a dog and many didn't sell their ARTs until the GAT was released. Berkeley's Ref 1 was rather quickly revised to Mk2 status. Others believe the old Virgo 2 speaker was better than the 3. How about those crappy Rowland Class D jobs? (I sold mine the following week)

So its not always about "progress"- engineering teams sometimes go in different sonic directions, intentionally, that aren't ultimately successful. Maybe that's the case with SME, don't really know...but to accept SME's newer arms on a prima facie basis doesn't make sense to me.

 

Not always the case- ARC amps honestly sucked for several decades until recently. Many people think early JRDG and Krell amps sound much better than their successors. The CJ ACT preamp was kind of a dog and many didn't sell their ARTs until the GAT was released. Berkeley's Ref 1 was rather quickly revised to Mk2 status. Others believe the old Virgo 2 speaker was better than the 3. How about those crappy Rowland Class D jobs? (I sold mine the following week)

So its not always about "progress"- engineering teams sometimes go in different sonic directions, intentionally, that aren't ultimately successful. Maybe that's the case with SME, don't really know...but to accept SME's newer arms on a prima facie basis doesn't make sense to me.

Keith, have to disagree with you here, many of the early ARC amps were and still are superb sounding pieces. My old ARC D70Mk2 would easily see off many a newer design..and was amazing for its age and period. Not to say that it couldn't be bettered, and is by my current tube set up; but for its period..it was way ahead of its time, IMO. Rowland knows about the current class D sound; but there are other forces at work here. However, when it comes to SME, I cannot see why they would not be completely accurate in their account.

 

Wow! Where did those armboards come from? Envious!

Don Corby of Corby's Audio here in Ontario Canada. He had a second armboard made up for it five minutes after he got it. Good guy perhaps look him up. He has a small machine shop and could make something cool and even has had some stuff anodized to look good.

 

Good! And nice picture, though that arm on the lower left doesn't exactly look like the 3012R we have seen herein. I still find it hard to believe that any wiring from the 80s and 90s - name brand or not - is sophisticated enough to compete with today's arms'.

Cooper litz wire has been around longer than you have been on the planet. What makes you think cooper today is any better than 1981 ? For someone who has never tried the arm, your theories do sound foolish and misguided. You are the one if I’m not mistaken who puts tinfoil all over your components and hat, correct ?

 

Dear Ron,

When you have someone standing next to you with a whip telling you every step, you will eventually get it done. It took more than one hour. David exgerated it to make me appear a little smarter . The tune by ear part was the time consuming part. It sounds easy because everyone here seems to already have golden ears. But actually there is a few tricks he taught where to listen to and what we try to get the sound closest to that point. When I didn’t understand the sound he aimed at I just asked. We kept playing two songs over and over. Each cart has different characters but still you can use that target points to tune the cart to. He will teach you how to do that. But before tuning he would hear your system first whether it would allow to get to those points and he might ask you to do something with your system. The set up of tt was so simple. The Thai team did all that by ourself. But the arm/cart set up was what he flew all the way to each me for.

Kindest regards,
Tang

Very interesting, Tang. Thank you!

Still, I’m sure you were an excellent student!

 

Not always the case- ARC amps honestly sucked for several decades until recently. Many people think early JRDG and Krell amps sound much better than their successors. The CJ ACT preamp was kind of a dog and many didn't sell their ARTs until the GAT was released. Berkeley's Ref 1 was rather quickly revised to Mk2 status. Others believe the old Virgo 2 speaker was better than the 3. How about those crappy Rowland Class D jobs? (I sold mine the following week)

So its not always about "progress"- engineering teams sometimes go in different sonic directions, intentionally, that aren't ultimately successful. Maybe that's the case with SME, don't really know...but to accept SME's newer arms on a prima facie basis doesn't make sense to me.

+1

Very historically based and logical!

I will add another possible example: a decent fraction of MartinLogan aficionados preferred the Prodigy to the later released Summit. I, for one, never “upgraded.”

 

I considered something like this on my SME 30/12. However, unlike the Kronos, each of the four suspension towers on the SME is slightly different because the load on each tower is different. Adding any weight from another armboard plus arm would wreak havoc with the balance of the finely tuned system. The Kronos seems different in this regard.

The SME had the decorative rings to cover the suspension bands so there is nothing solid to clamp onto. I do think you SME could handle the weight on the left side of the table since those towers have less load.

But this configuration is your best bet.

 

What types of cartridges are good matches for the 3012R (in terms of compliance)?

I run a wide range of carts on my 3012R, both low compliance and high compliance. I've read that the SME 3012R was designed for medium and high compliance cartridges, I really don't believe that. Vintage Shure V15 Mk3 with Jico stylus sounds amazing, as does my Ortofon SPU 85 Anniversary. Those two carts couldn't be more different.

 

I run a wide range of carts on my 3012R, both low compliance and high compliance. I've read that the SME 3012R was designed for medium and high compliance cartridges, I really don't believe that. Vintage Shure V15 Mk3 with Jico stylus sounds amazing, as does my Ortofon SPU 85 Anniversary. Those two carts couldn't be more different.

The V15/III with SAS stylus is a giant-killer....

 

These arms actually look like the 9" versions, the 9" V, and 3009, though I can't tell which series or mk. I don't know if there was a 3009R.

its the M2, not 3009.

david

 

Everyone says that adjusting the arm height is not necessary with the 3012R. Of course, it is not necessary with my V-12 either, but I do it anyway because I hear a difference, as do listeners who visit me. Perhaps they are just humoring me. If the 3012R is more difficult to adjust, which I think it is, and arm height makes a difference, which I think it does, this may be a deal breaker for me. Tang wrote that David went back and forth 12 or so times to fine tune the VTA before getting settling on the proper height. This tells me that I would want to adjust arm height for different LPs.

Peter, i hear a distinct difference with VTA settings on my short linear tracker and have set it for thin albums, as it is difficult to adjust. My 3012R arm is not as finicky and is set for 180 g albums, but will do all thicknesses very well. One way to deal with VTA difference when you have more than one arm !

 

Everyone says that adjusting the arm height is not necessary with the 3012R. Of course, it is not necessary with my V-12 either, but I do it anyway because I hear a difference, as do listeners who visit me. Perhaps they are just humoring me. If the 3012R is more difficult to adjust, which I think it is, and arm height makes a difference, which I think it does, this may be a deal breaker for me. Tang wrote that David went back and forth 12 or so times to fine tune the VTA before getting settling on the proper height. This tells me that I would want to adjust arm height for different LPs.

Who said that arm height isn’t important, of course it is! You’re drawing totally the wrong conclusion here Peter, IME there’s one optimized VTA position where almost every lp will fall in and the only reason to change for each and every lp is because you haven’t nailed it the first time. I didn’t go back & forth 12 times to fine tune the VTA after setting it, that’s the number of times it took listening to the same track to nail it. You think that’s a lot setting up vta in a totally alien system that still had to be optimized? It’s a one time thing set it correctly and forget it!

david

 

Thats a a big change Marc specially going back to the correct phase, I always find that reversing it does funky things to the sound.

david

Well, to go off topic a little, but related to Dave advising Tang to switch his Cessaro subs off.

Have dialled in my analog to a level well in advance of anything I've had before (now scouring local record shops for classical Lps en masse).
But my cdp sound has been elusive in comparison.

My Stacore from under the cdp gone (to under the tt), and final upgrade on power cords to Zu subs.

So upon reading Tang's benefits in dropping out his subs, I thought I'd dial my subs to be as minimal as possible in augmenting the full range drivers.

I've gone from my London room setting of 50Hz, 5/10 level, 180° abs phase, to 35Hz, 2.5/10, 0°.

And despite a little mental readjustment, I'm totally sold on this new setting.

Air and dimensionality are up, bass bloat down, bass articulation and attack up.

Even w my ear right up against the sub, there is only minimal output.

Despite the 3012R not being on my radar, this thread has really been relevant to me hearing about Dave's thoughts on Tang's subs.

 

Dave, too much subs output is maybe one of the biggest sins in audio, and I've certainly been as guilty as anyone in getting this wrong.

Fascinatingly it's taken the move to a much more truthful and linear acoustic to reveal this, plus getting the rest of my system sorted.

Anyhow, back to the topic in hand...