Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

Except we are actually in agreement! I'm assuming you were less than enthusiastic about ARCs efforts in between the D70 and the Ref75. Don Saltzman wrote about the change in sound in his review of the Ref 250SEs:

"One of the most interesting aspects of the Ref 250 SE is its tonal palette. Some reviewers have commented that earlier Audio Research amplifiers suffered from a certain lightening of tonal color, i.e., a threadbare or whitish quality. After months of listening to the 250 SEs, I can report that the tonal color of these amplifiers is anything but threadbare.All instruments are presented with a richness of color that you would hear live. Indeed, this is one of the reasons many of us are addicted to the sound of tube amplification. The interesting part is that while tonal color is fully saturated, it never progresses to the over-ripe or excessive bloom that some tube amplifiers can’t seem to avoid."

Yes, I see your point. There were several models introduced by ARC during the interim period that just weren't that great.
Although, I think a blanket statement like that is still a bit misleading. For instance, the Classic 60 was actually a pretty good amp..and so one had to pick and choose with careful auditioning throughout the time periods.

@ microstrip...No, again a blanket statement regarding the Rowland gear! While you are correct that the preamps tended to sound better the later the design, the amps were in fact the opposite. As Keith stated, the move to Class D was, at least in most people's opinion ( I guess there are going to be some people who do prefer this sound..Jeff himself told me that the minimization of transformer noise with the Class D amp was most important to his primary far east market) a step backwards.

 

Christian, do you find that all of your cartridges have the same headshell to stylus vertical distance so that you do not have to adjust the arm height of your 3012R when changing between your quite impressive collection of vintage cartridges? How about when you go from a modern to a vintage cartridge? I may have missed whether or not you have multiple 3012Rs for this purpose.

I always check/adjust arm height when changing out carts. That is the only way to adjust VTA/SRA for the cart in question. Also, some carts are longer or shorter than others. I measure the distance between the joint where the headshell meets the bayonet arm wand to stylus tip. For SPU, they are mostly the same in length (52mm), varying maybe 1/2 millimeter. Using this measured distance will determine if I will need to re-align using the sme sliding sled (too of fro) with a 2 point protractor. After that is done, I set VTF and look to optimize arm height for the cart in question and possible azimuth. SPU are mostly the same but may vary by a couple of playing cards one way or the other when setting height. I use a 180 gram thick record for VTA and this seems to be a good spot for 200 and 150 standard weight LP's. I have noticed the SME is more forgiving of VTA offering a larger range that sounds good without adjustment being done. My Graham arms is more sensitive to record thickness changes.

 

Any SME 3012R users notice any difference between the early S2 headshells vs the later S2 headshells with the finger lift attached to the side?

 

IMHO it is the critical point. We think we understood, but IMHO we are not fully understanding. IMHO you are not understanding that David process of setting the SME is only valid in a particular set of conditions - that probably are not fulfilled by most of our systems in their current conditions. I will quote David elucidative and clear answer:

You are right, Fransisco. I do not understand what is kept private between David and the concerned party. That is there business. As far as setting up an SME arm, my SME dealer and the SME manual are consistent with what David has written publicly on WBF.

 

And I think it was you that told me about it!

Do you have this Shure V15/III cart ? maybe I should get one ???

 

Wow, what a read for a few days through my holidays.

Tang many congrats on your reborn system with the AS2000 and 3012R and all the new tuning.
It allready was a beautiful system and now even more impressive, enjoy all the new music in good health!

 

Cooper litz wire has been around longer than you have been on the planet. What makes you think cooper today is any better than 1981 ? For someone who has never tried the arm, your theories do sound foolish and misguided. You are the one if I’m not mistaken who puts tinfoil all over your components and hat, correct ?

Arrogance won't get you anywhere with me. Litz is a cable construction technique, and does not say anything about the copper quality, which has improved indeed (purity et al). I am looking forward to someone comparing this arm to something more modern, with advanced wiring.

PS: it's not tinfoil, it's copper foil, if you happen to know the difference, but do feel free to tell us where this fits into your argument...

 

Arrogance won't get you anywhere with me. Litz is a cable construction technique, and does not say anything about the copper quality, which has improved indeed (purity et al). I am looking forward to someone comparing this arm to something more modern, with advanced wiring.

PS: it's not tinfoil, it's copper foil, if you happen to know the difference, but do feel free to tell us where this fits into your argument...

You’re ignoring the fact that the SME is sitting side by side with some of today’s latest great most expensive tonearm, look at pictures they don’t lie. Also Chris, Steve, Tang and a few others here own top mean modern arms too, look at the quality of their systems and their turntables do you think everyone’s deaf?

You put too much stock in value of numbers when there’s no direct correlation with sound quality. Do you really believe that you can hear a difference between 99.9% and 99.999999%? Between OFC and standard drawing? The highly touted OCC copper is the most colored wire I’ve heard and easy to hear even next to cheap zip cord but hey it’s the latest greatest tech, it must be good, duh!

Sorry but if you want to talk about arrogance I’d say look closer to home.

david

 

You’re ignoring the fact that the SME is sitting side by side with some of today’s latest great most expensive tonearm, look at pictures they don’t lie. Also Chris, Steve and a few others here own top mean modern arms too, do you think everyone’s deaf? Look at the quality of their systems and their turntables.

You put too much stock in value of numbers when there’s no direct correlation with sound quality. Do you really believe that you can hear a difference between 99.9% and 99.999999%? Between OFC and standard drawing? The highly touted OCC copper is the most colored wire I’ve heard and easy to hear even next to cheap zip cord but hey it’s the latest greatest tech, it must be good, duh!

Sorry but if you want to talk about arrogance I’d say look closer to home.

david

Need the direct comparison. No one is deaf, and certainly Steve's system sounds really wonderful with it, but are you overthinking it? I do think so. You just prefer a certain sound. I also do not believe anyone today would want to go out and buy wire from the 80s and 90s, or use it in the products they manufacture - simple as that. The highlighted line tells me exactly how you think and hear: zip cord over OCC wire. Really...

 

Need the direct comparison. No one is deaf, and certainly Steve's system sounds really wonderful with it, but are you overthinking it? I do think so. You just prefer a certain sound. I also do not believe anyone today would want to go out and buy wire from the 80s and 90s, or use it in the products they manufacture - simple as that. The highlighted line tells me exactly how you think and hear: zip cord over OCC wire. Really...

You need? Simple go buy it and try it instead of trolling and mocking! You should see what people are paying for 20's-40's wires these days ! You're not only out of line but totally out touch too, better stick to copper foil and magnets because that's where it's at in ack land!

david

 

Need the direct comparison. No one is deaf, and certainly Steve's system sounds really wonderful with it, but are you overthinking it? I do think so. You just prefer a certain sound. I also do not believe anyone today would want to go out and buy wire from the 80s and 90s, or use it in the products they manufacture - simple as that. The highlighted line tells me exactly how you think and hear: zip cord over OCC wire. Really...

"Steve's system sounds really wonderful with it" ack, shouldn't that just end the conversation?

 

"Steve's system sounds really wonderful with it" ack, shouldn't that just end the conversation?

My TechDas AF1 allows for 2 arms.

I use a Graham Phantom Elite with an MC Anna and the SME 3012R with a ZYX Premium. Granted it is comparing apples to oranges because one arms shorter than the other and they are 2 different cartridges. Having said that I listen to the SME 3012R and ZYX virtually 100% of the time as that sound lights up my ears

 

You need? Simple go buy it and try it instead of trolling and mocking!

Go out and buy and compare, based on hearsay? Or based on comments like SME don't have as good engineers today? THAT is trolling with unsubstantiated claims.

better stick to copper foil and magnets because that's where it's at in ack land!

It's also where the patents are, not with zip cord

 

"Steve's system sounds really wonderful with it" ack, shouldn't that just end the conversation?

One system! I think not. I did say before it's great arm that offers flexibility, but beyond that...

 

My TechDas AF1 allows for 2 arms.

I use a Graham Phantom Elite with an MC Anna and the SME 3012R with a ZYX Premium. Granted it is comparing apples to oranges because one arms shorter than the other and they are 2 different cartridges. Having said that I listen to the SME 3012R and ZYX virtually 100% of the time as that sound lights up my ears

Yes we know this Steve. We also know that a plethora of people on WBF with world class systems like yours love the arm. But.....people still want to discuss reasons why it shouldn't sound good. We got rid of one troll only to have another jump in. Extremely frustrating for me as I just want to learn more about the arm from the long time users (Ron's point.)

 

One system! I think not.

One system> Are you crazy? Steve, David, Tang, Christian, the two additional uber audiophiles in Thailand, mine......etc. All with world class turntables.

How many do you need?

 

Go out and buy and compare, based on hearsay? Or based on comments like SME don't have as good engineers today? Right.

It's also where the patents are, not with zip cord

Then listen to the patents what are you doing here?

david

 

Yes we know this Steve. We also know that a plethora of people on WBF with world class systems like yours love the arm. But.....people still want to discuss reasons why it shouldn't sound good. We got rid of one troll only to have another jump in. Extremely frustrating for me as I just want to learn more about the arm from the long time users (Ron's point.)

The one David found for me was NIB and with the original unused Van Den Hul copper phono cables. The box had never been opened.

I am not the vinyl guru that most of you here are but I do know what I like. I was also interested in the tedious setup of the SAT arm in Tang's system. Every time David did one measurement it threw another measurement off, making the arm difficult to set up. Such is not the case with this SME 3012

In fact I take full blame for the notoriety this arm has gotten since I visited David for 5 days several years ago and remember him carrying a handful of these arms into his sound room to set up while I was there. I heard that arm on every one of his tables with the same as well as different cartridges over those 5 days and became a fan of the sound and posted extensively about it as well as David's mantra about sound where he states "above all else it must sound natural". IMO this is what this arm does

 

One system> Are you crazy? Steve, David, Tang, Christian, the two additional uber audiophiles in Thailand, mine......etc. All with world class turntables.

How many do you need?

Haven't heard any one of the other systems. Thus, remain unconvinced. Are you frustrated? You should me how frustrated I am with comments about zip cord and the like... RED FLAGS everywhere. People trolling the current SME engineers and designs, left and right. Are YOU frustrated? Let me see, do I care... Come down to earth folks.

 

Arrogance won't get you anywhere with me. Litz is a cable construction technique, and does not say anything about the copper quality, which has improved indeed (purity et al). I am looking forward to someone comparing this arm to something more modern, with advanced wiring.

PS: it's not tinfoil, it's copper foil, if you happen to know the difference, but do feel free to tell us where this fits into your argument...

show me your evidence pure cooper sounds better than less pure...just because it's pure doesn't mean it sounds better. Great for marketing though....Do you even know the purity of the SME 3012R tonearm internal wiring ? When you find out, please let us know....