Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

I wanted to cherry pick some titles because the feedback on the 33's were very good, some sounding better than the 45's. I guess I will have to get on that because the prices have gone up and some of the titles are gone. Do you know if or how many 33's were done that were not done as 45's?

You can still go to the Music Matters web page (http://www.musicmattersjazz.com) and peruse their site. You will see there that they do indeed have 33's that were not done at 45. Usually the more current titles in their release schedule.

 

Thank you, General!

. . .

I cannot understand what is lost on those who do not rate musicality as the pinnacle of accolades?

. . .

I personally also rate musicality as the pinnacle of accolades, but, respectfully, I consider the selection of musicality as the objective of the hobby, and the pursuit of musicality in our audio systems, merely to be a subjective preference. This is why many audiophiles do not rate musicality as the pinnacle of accolades.

The members of WBF collectively have done a lot of work identifying and debating the primary objectives of high-end audio. The participants in that discussion formed a consensus that there are four primary, but not mutually exclusive, alternative objectives of high-end audio:

1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape,

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile, and

4) create a sound that seems live.

These objectives are not mutually exclusive, and an audiophile might seek a combination of them.

I believe “musicality” is reflected in Objective 1) recreate the sound of an original musical event.

Objective 2) “reproduce exactly what is on the master tape” is, I believe, a valid subjective goal of the hobby, but does not equip one with the same compass as does the quest for musicality.

 

You can have musicality from great tone, liveliness, dynamics, without extraordinary resolution. And resolution without the aforementioned does not give you musicality.

Yet you get the highest musicality with great resolution. Timbral resolution for musical believability, separation of instruments and simultaneous strands for the emotional involvement that comes from musical intelligibility.

+1

However, we are also dealing with biases and preferences here. So people tend to fall into the two camps that I stated above. I believe you and i fall into the camp that i mentioned that prefers the 'absolute sound' type of reproduction.
IMHO both camps are correct in what they are trying to listen to.

 

(...) The 3012r is best with low compliance transducers whereas the V12 is able to control high compliance light weight ones.

Personally I prefer the 3012r to the V12,because I am reasonably versed in set up I do not mind the extra challenges involved.

For a less committed listener the V12 is way easier to get right. (...)

Thanks for bringing such clear opinions to this thread. I would like however to rise one aspect. Considering that the difference in effective mass is only two gram (R - 14g, V12 - 12g as far as I could see) , what other characteristic in your opinion makes one arm more suitable to control high compliance light weight cartridges?

Can I ask you what do you think are the extra challenges in setting the 3012R compared to the V12?

 

I would love someone to help give me some feedback on the 3012R... (on particular attributes) I think I may have some insights to the secrets of it.

 

I would love someone to help give me some feedback on the 3012R... (on particular attributes) I think I may have some insights to the secrets of it.

Extremely musical natural sound with the highest resolution in terms of deepest tonal range and depth, most natural realistic bass of any tonearm I've heard, easy straight forward setup, works great with all cartridges, killer bayonet mount flexibility, works right out of the box, doesn't need tweaking just proper setup. You won't find the air and depth around instruments on anything else, it's also extremely well balanced without accentuating anything, unlike most tonearms there's no obvious editorializing of music that I can hear. What else do you need, IMO it's sonically superior, the full package.

david

 

Extremely musical natural sound with the highest resolution in terms of deepest tonal range and depth, most natural realistic bass of any tonearm I've heard, easy straight forward setup, works great with all cartridges, killer bayonet mount flexibility, works right out of the box, doesn't need tweaking just proper setup. You won't find the air and depth around instruments on anything else, it's also extremely well balanced without accentuating anything, unlike most tonearms there's no obvious editorializing of music that I can hear. What else do you need, IMO it's sonically superior, the full package.

david

And how does one fashion it to a non SME turntable? Some custom mounting hardware?

 

I don't think I know anyone who uses an SME 3012R tonearm on an SME turntable

 

I don't think I know anyone who uses an SME 3012R tonearm on an SME turntable

Fair enough, but how do you mount it? For example I have a Kronos Pro, can I use an SME 3012R on it? I've always had the feeling there are no standards for armboards.

 

Fair enough, but how do you mount it? For example I have a Kronos Pro, can I use an SME 3012R on it? I've always had the feeling there are no standards for armboards.

IIRC I use a Tech Das mounting board that David found new for me in England.

 

And how does one fashion it to a non SME turntable? Some custom mounting hardware?

Not sure if you can use a 12" arm with your Kronos but certainly the 9" & 10" versions are doable, ask Louis to make you a SME armboard.

david

 

(...) doesn't need tweaking just proper setup. (...)

David, sorry to insist, but I think most people are asking this question: what is meant by "proper setup"? Just following the SME standard guidelines? We could read that Tang system changed completely after your spend sometime adjusting the tonearm, is it your proprietary setup?

 

David, sorry to insist, but I think most people are asking this question: what is meant by "proper setup"? Just following the SME standard guidelines? We could read that Tang system changed completely after your spend sometime adjusting the tonearm, is it your proprietary setup?

Was the chap (chap-SME speak for “other expert”) that arrived before David clumsy and all-thumbs?

 

David, sorry to insist, but I think most people are asking this question: what is meant by "proper setup"? Just following the SME standard guidelines? We could read that Tang system changed completely after your spend sometime adjusting the tonearm, is it a proprietary set up?

Yes, SME's manual is very clear and comprehensive and the tonearm very straight forward to setup, can be done in a matter of minutes, I have tools that simplify the process. Next is the VTA (or call it SRA if you want they're the same thing in practice) which like any other tonearm requires some experience and key on getting the most out of your front end, its something that can be taught. The rest is the playback chain from the cartridge to the speakers, you need resolution to hear the changes in VTA for finding the right position. The reason i continue pounding the setup drum is because it's essential otherwise it doesn't matter what you use. To give an example the first thing I did in Tang's room was turning off the subs they were muddying up everything, the difference in resolution was huge. Every room and system is different you need someone with experience to show what needs to be done, if it's done right and taught effectively the person can carry on their own but ultimately it comes down to individual's intellect, trust between the parties and willingness to give it a shot. Of course not all is divulged on line and there are things that are kept between me and the concerned party. As an educator you know the value of an experienced person who can condense and convey the essentials of their knowledge as condensed and as direct as possible, literally spoon feed it , teaspoon sizes. I can do that.

david

 

Was the chap (chap-SME speak for “other expert”) that arrived before David clumsy and all-thumbs?

Actually he was very competent and got Tang 80% of the way there. He was much better and faster than me getting to that 80% level with all the other tonearms we had to set up on this trip for Tang and other clients, no way I could have finished the setups on time without the Thai team!

david

 

Extremely musical natural sound with the highest resolution in terms of deepest tonal range and depth, most natural realistic bass of any tonearm I've heard, easy straight forward setup, works great with all cartridges, killer bayonet mount flexibility, works right out of the box, doesn't need tweaking just proper setup. You won't find the air and depth around instruments on anything else, it's also extremely well balanced without accentuating anything, unlike most tonearms there's no obvious editorializing of music that I can hear. What else do you need, IMO it's sonically superior, the full package.

david

I need a bit different information.

Like exactly what the internal wire is like in configuration, does it have a jacket, inside the outside jacket is there filler? Or is it just 4 twisted or untwisted wires?

And I'm wondering if it has an upfront sound, instead of a deep 3D stage. Do guitars sound more lifelike in size and less through a lens? I don't expect these things necessarily but I want to check. I've been really looking into the way their bearings are. From what I've read I can see why someone at SME may think it is inferior, but also have some ideas about why it is revered.

 

Actually he was very competent and got Tang 80% of the way there. He was much better and faster than me getting to that 80% level with all the other tonearms we had to set up on this trip for Tang and other clients, no way I could have finished the setups on time without the Thai team!

david

Thanks....Thumbs up David!

 

I need a bit different information.

Like exactly what the internal wire is like in configuration, does it have a jacket, inside the outside jacket is there filler? Or is it just 4 twisted or untwisted wires?

And I'm wondering if it has an upfront sound, instead of a deep 3D stage. Do guitars sound more lifelike in size and less through a lens? I don't expect these things necessarily but I want to check. I've been really looking into the way their bearings are. From what I've read I can see why someone at SME may think it is inferior, but also have some ideas about why it is revered.

The wire is van den Hul tonearm wire you can get all the specs from their site. The answer to the 3D stage and lifelike guitars is of course but the rest of the system needs to be able to reproduce the range of what the 3012-r is capable of. IME the bottleneck is always the system and not this tonearm, you hear more and more in the right places as you climb the system ladder.

david

 

Thumbs up to mad Floyd for getting on with trying instead of arguing

 

Thumbs up to mad Floyd for getting on with trying instead of arguing

I'd love to try it, just not sure how hard it is to source one of these - or, gulp, have the courage to ask Louis to make me an armboard...