Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

I'd love to try it, just not sure how hard it is to source one of these - or, gulp, have the courage to ask Louis to make me an armboard...

Easy to source from online auctions and websites if you know what you're doing, a trusted party if you don't.

Making custom armboards is the duty of tt manufacturer, he shouldn't give you any trouble.

david

 

Yes, SME's manual is very clear and comprehensive and the tonearm very straight forward to setup, can be done in a matter of minutes, I have tools that simplify the process. Next is the VTA (or call it SRA if you want they're the same thing in practice) which like any other tonearm requires some experience and key on getting the most out of your front end, its something that can be taught. The rest is the playback chain from the cartridge to the speakers, you need resolution to hear the changes in VTA for finding the right position. The reason i continue pounding the setup drum is because it's essential otherwise it doesn't matter what you use. To give an example the first thing I did in Tang's room was turning off the subs they were muddying up everything, the difference in resolution was huge. Every room and system is different you need someone with experience to show what needs to be done, if it's done right and taught effectively the person can carry on their own but ultimately it comes down to individual's intellect, trust between the parties and willingness to give it a shot. Of course not all is divulged on line and there are things that are kept between me and the concerned party. As an educator you know the value of an experienced person who can condense and convey the essentials of their knowledge as condensed and as direct as possible, literally spoon feed it , teaspoon sizes. I can do that.

david

Thanks. I was addressing just the SME tonearm setup, nothing else. I really appreciate someone who manages to transmit his knowledge, and I know perfectly how hard it is to separate private and public knowledge in forums. But when we are addressing easiness of setup the questions must be asked and the answers must be analyzed. IMHO something that depends on expert setup that is not public available in easy to follow complete instructions can not be considered easy to setup.

The SME 3012 R has many secondary adjustments. If they are critical for excellent performance we can easily expect that most people will be using it sub-optimally or even poorly. Fortunately it seems they can be left untouched.

 

I'd love to try it, just not sure how hard it is to source one of these - or, gulp, have the courage to ask Louis to make me an armboard...

I can tell you from my hour long converstation (at the Munich show) that Louis doesn't seem to dislike SME arms, yet he says his arm is far superior.
He told me that SME arms are good for playing around, but for a modern reference system you need to look somewhere else....

 

Thanks. I was addressing just the SME tonearm setup, nothing else. I really appreciate someone who manages to transmit his knowledge, and I know perfectly how hard it is to separate private and public knowledge in forums. But when we are addressing easiness of setup the questions must be asked and the answers must be analyzed. IMHO something that depends on expert setup that is not public available in easy to follow complete instructions can not be considered easy to setup.

The SME 3012 R has many secondary adjustments. If they are critical for excellent performance we can easily expect that most people will be using it sub-optimally or even poorly. Fortunately it seems they can be left untouched.

I guess even simple is relative, one needs understanding of the basics ie alignment & VTF and the purpose of VTA. With minimal instruction and very simple tools a first time user can easily master the basics, it's not the case with all arms, some are so complicated that with all my experience i would never attempt to set up by myself. Add to that a tonearm that changes vtf when adjusting vta and you'd pulling all your hairs out, that if you have any left at our age ! Tang installed and setup a 3012-r Perfectly in less than hour on his first attempt and was as I know its the first time he ever setup any tonearm from scratch. Yes he is a smart individual but still it's quite something. Or look at Christian how he took to the arm and how easily and efficiently he's swapping cartridges and discovering vintage cartridges, how many other arms give you this flexibility? That's why I say the 3012-r is simple to set up.

david

 

Today I had an audiophile visitor to listen to the Lampizator Pacific.
He was asking, if anything else was new, so I showed the vdh Colibri XGW AGW Master Signature in the SME 3012r.
After one song with the Pacific I changed to analog (using CHP P1 Phonopre)
After some seconds he cancelled his idea to listen to the CDs he brought along, and we had a great analog evening with the SME 3012r.
So much superior to digital

 

I can tell you from my hour long converstation (at the Munich show) that Louis doesn't seem to dislike SME arms, yet he says his arm is far superior.
He told me that SME arms are good for playing around, but for a modern reference system you need to look somewhere else....

That sounds like Louis. I can already hear him say "Why would you want to get an SME when you already have something much better?"

 

Thumbs up to mad Floyd for getting on with trying instead of arguing

+1

 

I can tell you from my hour long converstation (at the Munich show) that Louis doesn't seem to dislike SME arms, yet he says his arm is far superior.
He told me that SME arms are good for playing around, but for a modern reference system you need to look somewhere else....

He must have changed his mind then. I met Louis and heard his table at the NYC Audio show in about 2012/2013. He chose to introduce his new Kronos table with the SME V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge. I did not know he has designed his own arm. He usually sells the Black Beauty arm with is tables and I think it was designed by a friend of his in Canada.

It seems that there are a few modern reference systems using the SME 3012r arm. Perhaps he has not heard that model.

 

Congratulations to Tang for being able to set-up his 3012R competently on his first try! I don’t know how he did that.

I know what I know, and I know most of what I don’t know. I could spend the rest of my life focused on tonearm installation and cartridge alignment and I still wouldn’t be as good as PeterA is today, let alone David!

 

Thumbs up to mad Floyd for getting on with trying instead of arguing

Yes, that is great and I look forward to hearing it in his system. If a 3012R would fit on my SME table, I would also try one out. No one has answered my question as to why SME did not design the bigger tables to accommodate the 3012R arms. Because they don't, I have drawings for an outboard armpod, but have not yet decided if I want to go to the effort with such a project. I am having second thoughts about the complication and having a platter move independently from the armboard. I don't like that idea in theory, but in practice it may not matter.

 

Fair enough, but how do you mount it? For example I have a Kronos Pro, can I use an SME 3012R on it? I've always had the feeling there are no standards for armboards.

Order an SME mount armboard.

 

Yes, that is great and I look forward to hearing it in his system. If a 3012R would fit on my SME table, I would also try one out. No one has answered my question as to why SME did not design the bigger tables to accommodate the 3012R arms. Because they don't, I have drawings for an outboard armpod, but have not yet decided if I want to go to the effort with such a project. I am having second thoughts about the complication and having a platter move independently from the armboard. I don't like that idea in theory, but in practice it may not matter.

Peter ,
Why doesn't your SME30 accommodate the 3012R? If it is just the cable connector you can easily take it away.

 

I did not know he has designed his own arm. He usually sells the Black Beauty arm with is tables and I think it was designed by a friend of his in Canada.

It seems that there are a few modern reference systems using the SME 3012r arm. Perhaps he has not heard that model.

Yes I meant the arm he sells. I asked him generally about SME arms, I do not know if he included (or ever heard) the 3012R.

 

What types of cartridges are good matches for the 3012R (in terms of compliance)?

 

Hmmm, earlier we were told that SME doesn't have as good engineers now as back then, and that the 3012R is the pinnacle of their arms... Then, you also said something about lack of resolution in the V12??!?!? THIS is why folks like Peter and myself are looking for direct comparisons.

Yes, a direct comparison would be great, but that is really a separate subject from this thread which is about the virtues of the vintage 3012R. It took me 45 or so pages to give up my obsession for such a comparison. It is clear that no one reading this thread has done such a comparison, and perhaps few have even heard the V-12 arm which I found to sound quite different from the 9" V arm.

I think zerostargeneral spoke in general terms about SME arms (and tables?) being very musical. I don't think he made a distinction in these posts between the 3012R and the V-12 in terms of musicality. He did point out that they are more ideally suited for different compliance cartridges. I agree with the general's comment about SME being musical. Others have described a "rightness" to their sound. However, I find the Model 30/12A with V-12 arm to be pretty resolving as well, but then this source is not at the level of the others that are being discussed in the context of the 3012R.

Dear Sirs,

You are all extremely intelligent and tasteful individuals.However this thread has managed to obviate the point.

The bayonet mount 3012r is legendary for many good reasons that are not subjective as long as all of the implementation rules are followed.

The V12 is no less legendary and should not be seen as better or worse merely different.This particular tonearm is able to accommodate a wider range of dynamic compliance.

In my opinion the EMT,3012r,Atlas and Subwoofer disconnection,have dramatically improved Tang's system.

The 3012r is best with low compliance transducers whereas the V12 is able to control high compliance light weight ones.

Personally I prefer the 3012r to the V12,because I am reasonably versed in set up I do not mind the extra challenges involved.

For a less committed listener the V12 is way easier to get right.

....

Kindest regards,G.

And this:

...

SME do not now and never have made anything truly resolving.What they are is perfectly musical and that is rare in this field.

....

Kindest regards,G.

 

He must have changed his mind then. I met Louis and heard his table at the NYC Audio show in about 2012/2013. He chose to introduce his new Kronos table with the SME V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge. I did not know he has designed his own arm. He usually sells the Black Beauty arm with is tables and I think it was designed by a friend of his in Canada.

It seems that there are a few modern reference systems using the SME 3012r arm. Perhaps he has not heard that model.

Every manufacturer that makes his own arm for his table will say theirs is the best. He is not the only one. MadFloyd you need to do this with your Kronos

 

I'd love to try it, just not sure how hard it is to source one of these - or, gulp, have the courage to ask Louis to make me an armboard...

Louis? You and I only know too well. Dream on to get the SME arm board from him.

Tang

 

Every manufacturer that makes his own arm for his table will say theirs is the best. He is not the only one. MadFloyd you need to do this with your KronosView attachment 43105

Hey that's DC's set up. He has more arms and tables than most of this board!

 

Peter ,
Why doesn't your SME30 accommodate the 3012R? If it is just the cable connector you can easily take it away.

Fransisco, I have the longer SME Model 30/12 designed for 12" arms, not the Model 30 designed for 9" arms. According to the specification sheet, my turntable does not have enough space to accommodate the swing distance needed for clearance of the 3012R counterweight tube and my right rear suspension tower bands. I discovered this in a discussion on another forum months ago. I asked David if I could simply cut off the last 10mm or so of the tube to make the clearance, and he told me it would mess up the sound. It looks to me as though there is extra tubing that would not be needed because my cartridge is only 12grams and the counterweight should be fairly close to the pivot. Regardless, that is why I investigated a separate arm pod and so that I could use two arms with two cartridges.

I don't know about the cable connector fitting through the cut out in the 30/12 chassis, but yes, that could be worked around from what I can tell. Of course I could always try the 10" version on my table. Or I could buy an arm and just cut off the end anyway. I do wish SME made tables that could accommodate two arms.

The other issue is frankly the possible difficulty of adjusting arm height. I will investigate this if Madfloyd gets the arm. Everyone says that adjusting the arm height is not necessary with the 3012R. Of course, it is not necessary with my V-12 either, but I do it anyway because I hear a difference, as do listeners who visit me. Perhaps they are just humoring me. If the 3012R is more difficult to adjust, which I think it is, and arm height makes a difference, which I think it does, this may be a deal breaker for me. Tang wrote that David went back and forth 12 or so times to fine tune the VTA before getting settling on the proper height. This tells me that I would want to adjust arm height for different LPs. I can not reconcile one being able to discern minute differences during the set up procedure and then not wanting to adjust arm height for LPs with different cutting angles or thicknesses. Difficulty in adjusting and repeating the proper (subjectively preferred) height could explain why people don't do it with this arm.

Oh oh, despite best my efforts, my obsession is still coming through. Sorry. Perhaps I'll just take my arm over to Ian's when he has the 3012R and do the comparison there. I've heard the V-12 arm on Louis' Kronos table before. It sounded excellent with the AirTight Supreme, which I also happen to have.

 

Every manufacturer that makes his own arm for his table will say theirs is the best. He is not the only one. MadFloyd you need to do this with your KronosView attachment 43105

I considered something like this on my SME 30/12. However, unlike the Kronos, each of the four suspension towers on the SME is slightly different because the load on each tower is different. Adding any weight from another armboard plus arm would wreak havoc with the balance of the finely tuned system. The Kronos seems different in this regard.