Speaker Oasis...Bionor
- Thread starter ALF
- Start date
I do - which is why I said about control. By control I don't always mean more power
Not necessarily, I tried Krell integrated and a Gamut on my Veritys and did not like that, that was overdamping, too much. But the Jadis JA100 was positively superior (especially in bass and slam, which is the current discussion) to the VAC 30/30, could have been multiple factors.
When I began my journey toward higher-efficiency speakers and SET’s, I discovered some disappointing realities.
While on paper a higher-than-average speaker sensitivity, say, around 94-96db, would indeed go plenty loud with 8 or 9 watts, the musical results would often be far from ideal. Plenty of sound, not a lot of music.
The ability of an amp to feed current to a speaker of varying impedance when playing music is not an equivalent equation apropos that same amp’s ability to make the speaker go loud. Power supply, rectification, output transformers, whether the stages are coupled with caps or interstage transformers… These things mattered way more than the sensitivity of the speaker and the output wattage of the amp.
When I contacted Thomas Mayer to enquire about a bespoke build he mentioned he does not build 300B amps below a certain cost threshold due to the fact that in order for 300B’s to realise their potential, the circuit demands a power supply and output transformer that simply can’t be achieved on the cheap.
Nirvana looks easy to attain on paper, but in the real world, well…
Yes, an interesting post ... my first, glib response would be that there are many roads to Rome, and the way Marty, David and others have got there causes them to have a certain perspective on what's important; my experiences were quite different from most people, in that I didn't constantly experiment in changing speakers, their configuration, or how the room was set up. I would suggest that the end result of these different efforts of various people, to an outsider's ears, would likely be very similar - and I believe the reason for that is that sufficient has to be done to lull the brain into accepting the heard experience as 'valid'. There will still be anomalies, things "wrong" with the sound, but the brain doesn't care - it's passed a point where it finds it easy to reject the sound as 'fake'. And what was actually done, what steps were taken to reach that sufficiency has varied enormously between the different audio people who have experimented towards this goal - the only thing that matters is that enough was done; the sound has reached a point where it's good enough to throw up a convincing illusion, at all times, and at any volume, in the best realisation.
Their paths might be different in terms of electronics and speaker choices. Neither of them deny the importance of the room. David too knows that he could improve on building a dedicated room for the set up. I was specifically addressing your point of cringing at the volume going up from softer passages to louder ones. Not other aspects of the sound illusion. If you want the sound to transition seamlessly to loud without overloading the room, the room and treatment has to be good, or DSP in place, and it has nothing to do with SET + horn or SS + inefficient speaker.
Which might be a good time to ask, what is this, "overloading of the room" thing? I don't understand what is meant by this - I hear plenty of systems fall apart when a certain volume level is reached, obvious distortion coming from the speaker drivers; but when a system isn't deficient then the sound in the room just becomes very intense, visceral is a word I would use - it's a powerful sensation that goes through the body, with no sense of unpleasantness about it. A live example would be being in a tiny room, along with a drummer, with full kit, absolutely going for it - this would be overwhelming, but I wouldn't use the term "room overloading" to describe such ...
A basic mismatch will obviously result in that. But if someone is willing to do a bit of trial and error that should be easy to sort out. For example, with apogees, trying a high current SS amp, a good push pull valve amp, and a SET should be the least of one's worries as long as one is not ideologically predisposed or opposed to the other
I wonder ... nearly all systems start to generate quite obvious distortion beyond certain volumes; 30 years ago it amazed me how pathetic most amps were in this regard, especially the humongously monstrous ones
- things have improved, but it's still rare to find a system able to generate intense sound effortlessly.I wonder ... nearly all systems start to generate quite obvious distortion beyond certain volumes; 30 years ago it amazed me how pathetic most amps were in this regard, especially the humongously monstrous ones
I was referring specifically to your part of orchestral crescendoes making one cringe and reach for the volume. This will more often happen because of too many reflections as things get louder. In Steve's room, for example, there is an acoustic curtain running around the room. Different people will have different opinions on how much the curtain should be pulled across for natural sound, but one thing I did notice was that when it was pulled back, direct reflections from the wall were causing it to be harder on the ears at the same volume. So surely without all his treatment, one would have to reach for the volume much more when things got louder, IMO
There is an interesting 7m*3m room here close to London which is a Datasat Auro 3d with 14.4 B&W speakers, the room is atrocious and full of corners...not just a simple rectangular block. It is amazing how relaxing orchestra becomes in that room when you turn on room correction. It is unbearable to listen to otherwise. Room has a lot of treatment, and the guy who owns the system is quite an expert at setting up such MCH systems. This has nothing to do with the fact that I don't like B&Ws
"Too many reflections", with no added distortion doesn't bother me - this would be a personal preference.
Tiny DM10s gave me my first dose of the "good stuff", so I'm not averse to the brand - I have heard many instances of searing sound from fancier, more recent models in systems, so understand the sentiments ...
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
They are superb indeed with the Wilson X2. There is no slow bass as you "call" it
Ked et al, the acoustic treatments for my room were designed around my speaker and amplifier by my acoustician in such a way that not only does the room measure reasonably flat across all frequencies with the curtains closed BUT with my room size being constrained the room was also designed to accommodate the large Wilson speakers. You opinion as to how it sounds with the curtains opened in different places in the room and what you heard is moot because that is not how the room was meant to be heard
Hi Steve, I am referring to the point where if you pull back the curtains, the reflections will make the louder passages sound harder than with the curtain in place, proving that room treatment affects how we ease up the increase on the louder passages, which is what I was trying to communicate to Frank
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
micro, I'd say the difference is usually the last sentence in Exlibris' quote above.
In general, I think speakers with good polar response are capable of the kind of soundstaging that is immersive and provides a sonic picture of the venue. Many do not because of setup/room issues or electronics issues. Speakers with controlled directivity make it easier because they take away some of the dependence on the room. Typical direct radiators don't seem to be able to achieve this kind of soundstaging without a dedicated room. Electronics and interconnect cables need to be very resolving. Many Avantgarde speakers do not have a good polar response, but I haven't seen polars of all AGs... if the polar response is uneven the reflected sound will have a different tone/timbre and this harms the soundstaging, making the listener aware of the listening room boundaries. The key seems to be that the system is capable of reproducing spatial detail and the room does not contribute too much of it's own information.
It is fun watching a total newbie to high end audio who has never heard the word "soundstaging" attempt to describe it after hearing my system though.
Probably like most of you, many of my friends are not into high end audio but will listen and give their impressions.
Thanks for the update. David did tell me earlier in the year that this is the normal price, auctions start off low and end up around 50 k
The bidding pattern is very suspicious. After it reached us 5000, during the final week only two bidders placed bids. I find very strange such lack of interest for such a rare turntable.
Siemens Klangfilm Kl. L 433 "Bionor"
Gentlemen, I have visited this forum for the first time today and see this interesting topic - registered immediately.
I am writing from Germany, so sorry for my English or probably low experience with forum habits. Please allow a
few remarks about the speaker. The full name of it is that above.
Post 1: "Bionors, simply the best of transducers that I have heard, hands down, not even close to any other room
that I have been in, next to a real live event".
Post 4: "Simply put David's system has become my new reference. I have never heard sound as good as his any-
where or with any other gear". Thank you for these descriptions. It seems the system is properly set up.
Post 8: "I also agree with you about the sweet spot or lack thereof as the imaging is perfect anywhere in the room".
I do not agree, because the mid/high horns are highly directional. Unless you are in a very large room and at some
serious listening distance, it is better to have the horns at ear level and there certainly is a sweet spot if used in stereo.
See also post 26 for room size and driver integration.
Post 8 also: A large version of cinema horns has the name Euronor, a widely sold smaller speaker is called Eurodyn.
Pictures can be seen on www.klangfilm.org for instance in Bauer Kinotechnisches Taschenbuch book scan. Baffle
size for the Eurodyn as recommended by Siemens is at least 2 x 2 m (post 9). Additional pictures in another thread:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...My-Step-Beyond&p=329572&viewfull=1#post329572
Post 14 etc. about baffle size: The Bionor horns can be set up without baffle or with a smaller custom made baffle.
In fact in Europe I know some people using these without the wooden frames and stands. If put near a wall or in the
corner the bass extension can be good enough.
Thread went off topic later - did I miss something? See also in addition:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...My-Step-Beyond&p=328915&viewfull=1#post328915
Thank you for attention.
Gentlemen, I have visited this forum for the first time today and see this interesting topic - registered immediately.
I am writing from Germany, so sorry for my English or probably low experience with forum habits. Please allow a
few remarks about the speaker. The full name of it is that above.
Post 1: "Bionors, simply the best of transducers that I have heard, hands down, not even close to any other room
that I have been in, next to a real live event".
Post 4: "Simply put David's system has become my new reference. I have never heard sound as good as his any-
where or with any other gear". Thank you for these descriptions. It seems the system is properly set up.
Post 8: "I also agree with you about the sweet spot or lack thereof as the imaging is perfect anywhere in the room".
I do not agree, because the mid/high horns are highly directional. Unless you are in a very large room and at some
serious listening distance, it is better to have the horns at ear level and there certainly is a sweet spot if used in stereo.
See also post 26 for room size and driver integration.
Post 8 also: A large version of cinema horns has the name Euronor, a widely sold smaller speaker is called Eurodyn.
Pictures can be seen on www.klangfilm.org for instance in Bauer Kinotechnisches Taschenbuch book scan. Baffle
size for the Eurodyn as recommended by Siemens is at least 2 x 2 m (post 9). Additional pictures in another thread:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...My-Step-Beyond&p=329572&viewfull=1#post329572
Post 14 etc. about baffle size: The Bionor horns can be set up without baffle or with a smaller custom made baffle.
In fact in Europe I know some people using these without the wooden frames and stands. If put near a wall or in the
corner the bass extension can be good enough.
Thread went off topic later - did I miss something? See also in addition:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...My-Step-Beyond&p=328915&viewfull=1#post328915
Thank you for attention.
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